Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

mutantmagnet said:

If it lacks pvp it will fail....


...So I"ve heard around here.

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I FORCE MY DICK INTO YOUR BAKED GOOD!

*Your baked good begins to spoil*

Engagement window: 8 hours before your tea party is ruint


ps -> I am expecting this since via my amazing pares of deduction the devs of GREEN MONSTER EASY BAKE have claimed it.

*sip*

gnomad said:

Totally disagree, the correct answer is the bugs in the game should be corrected by the devs not some lame "We know what is wrong and we will fix it someday".

It is time to stop giving these lame assholes a pass everytime something goes wrong. I hope you don"t put up with that type of crap in your daily life so why should you put up with it in something you pay every month for?

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Typing semi 2 handed here. Am I the only playing customer here that is blown away by all the "patches" and what are in these patches? Listen, I am shooting for the moon and I know it"s impossible (release a game with ZERO bugs), that much I get. If that"s the goal you will NEVER release a game.

That being said, I am blown away by what I am seeing "patched" after games launch. Total class overhauls and revamps, hundreds of broken NPC"s, quests, "fixed", just TONS of stuff that screams, to me anyway, WHY WASN"T I FIXED BEFORE YOU MADE SOMEONE PAY FOR ME?

This is aimed at no particular game, but Ut made a rant a long time ago that still holds true today. Companies are now using the patching tool as a development product and late beta stage project.

Problem is we as players are allowing it to continue.

THere is no simple fix or solution, hell even Blizzard does it. But if you look at their patches from the last year it seems to be much more geared to fixing post launch content and IP stuff than anything and given how much content they"ve added, I accept that.

Seems like we are in a day and an age where companies are patching in "fun" after they launch a game.

Amazing.

Only way to get rid of those large patches at launch is to hold massive open betas for a good while with no NDA"s and you guys listening to your player feedback. Also, none of these magic patches that devs hide from the beta testers.

No company has done this because there going to lose money. Why beta test for free when they can make people pay for it.

The other flipside is your game sucks in the free beta and people don"t even bother with buying the box on release. Then your company loses everything.
Word of mouth is huge on a MMO.


In the end tho, none of it matters..even the total overhaul patches. If your games a stinker everyone will realize it very quickly,but if your game is really good then no matter how much you patch that fucker people will be drooling for more..


PostScript* there is one thing that EQ adopted from its MUD roots that I"ve yet to see another game use,and that is the guide system to help with CS,new players,and police exploiters. Thats something every MMO should think about useing.

Typing semi 2 handed here. Am I the only playing customer here that is blown away by all the "patches" and what are in these patches? Listen, I am shooting for the moon and I know it"s impossible (release a game with ZERO bugs), that much I get. If that"s the goal you will NEVER release a game.

That being said, I am blown away by what I am seeing "patched" after games launch. Total class overhauls and revamps, hundreds of broken NPC"s, quests, "fixed", just TONS of stuff that screams, to me anyway, WHY WASN"T I FIXED BEFORE YOU MADE SOMEONE PAY FOR ME?

This is aimed at no particular game, but Ut made a rant a long time ago that still holds true today. Companies are now using the patching tool as a development product and late beta stage project.

Problem is we as players are allowing it to continue.

THere is no simple fix or solution, hell even Blizzard does it. But if you look at their patches from the last year it seems to be much more geared to fixing post launch content and IP stuff than anything and given how much content they"ve added, I accept that.

Seems like we are in a day and an age where companies are patching in "fun" after they launch a game.

Amazing.

Click to expand...

It"s one thing to fix bugs, or add new content. I can even to some extent understand broken quests or encounters that need to be tuned. Its a whole other problem when developers and designers use release + patches to figure out what kind of game theyre going to deliver in the first place.

Developers / Designers are paid essentially to produce an experience and environment for the paying players/customers. The game should be designed with that in mind. The company should have an idea of how each character type should play, and be able to clearly communicate this to the players. If developers are unable to verbalize what each class/skill is meant for in terms of game mechanics then either they have failed in design or implementation. What especially irks me and Im sure most players is when character classes, races and the general mechanics of the game are clearly untested and not thought out. In an MMO where the marjority of your experience is going to be based upon the skills and abilities of your character, the constant non stop tweaking and insane overhauls made are pretty ridiculous. With the time commitments that are required to develop characters in an MMO, restarting your character is simply not an easy thing to do.

I have to imagine fleshing out combat mechanics / character balancing is much easier than having to test to see that 1000 quests in your game work. Gather 20-30 min max type players, give them access to equipment, NPCs, and have them do their worst and I guarantee you in about 2 days you"ll have an idea which PVE characters are overpowered, which PVP teams are out of balance. You dont even need alot of content to begin this type of testing. Stick a few players in a zone with different type of "NPC challenges" and see if they can beat them , solo, group etc, with different group makeups. When you find a solo class doing something that normally takes 3-4 players of other classes to do, it"s probably in need of some balancing. I don"t think theres been a single MMORPG where combat whether PVP or PVE hasnt been the mainstay of the game, and yet what are glaringly obvious problems in skills, talent trees, character classes make it to release until a humungous overhaul is performed. Then players get upset because what they"ve invested massive amounts of time into is now either a shadow of its former self or completely different from what they signed up for.

Age of Conan is the perfect example of this. It"s incomprehensible that they needed to release a game first then realize that there were glaring problems amongst the classes. It"s almost as if MMOs are designed backwards. Where so much time is spent buliding maps, quests, story, and "features" without ever taking enough time to make sure the core of the game actually works.

The only thing I can compare it to is someone writing out a 300 page campaign for a pen and paper RPG without ever creating a rule set to play by. Then winging it as they go along.

Part of the problem is how beta tests are designed. Making players level from 1 to x levels then having them test mechanics, encounters , quests all at once is just the wrong approach. So much more work needs to be done testing the basic game mechanics at each level / tier of gameplay before thought should even be put into encounters and the gaming experience. How many games have the 1-20 game been tested / balanced but by the mid to upper levels everything broken down completely?

Eh? Even WoW (which we can all agree was the best relased MMO ever) had significant changes to classes post release.
From an early patch see some of the changes to Druids and Hunters.

WoWatch Notes 1.02 - TenTonWiki

Well I certainly don"t want another release like VG which needed at least six months more of bugfixing and balancing before seeing the light of day (and probably another couple of months of beta). On some level you have to recognize that developers are not going to see the true impact of some class/item abilities until they"re in live play.

This is of course one reason why WoW doesn"t have as many proc type items as EQ did (or at least vanilla WoW didn"t -- have they added many to TBC?). WoW devs saw what the playerbase had done with various proc items (shakerpaging) and didn"t want that repeated in WoW.

You can"t always predict what"s going to happen when you throw something in and it may not show up until live.

Fayvren said:

The only thing I can compare it to is someone writing out a 300 page campaign for a pen and paper RPG without ever creating a rule set to play by. Then winging it as they go along.

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Which was, ironically, the most fun way to pay a pen and paper RPG. <3 "The only rule is that there are no rules."

AoC was released when it was because (1) Funcom was running out of money (2) WOTLK (and perhaps WAR) comes out this fall and if your PC MMO comes out around that time or soon after you will not even be noticed.

The correct thing Funcom should have done is 6 months ago, when they delayed the launch, is really figure out whats realistic they could do in six months. The only realistic thing they could have done is get the class mix perfect, and have the game be 1-50 or 1-60 (bump the XP requirements for the top levels) with no end-game sieging or PVE raid zones in. They could have patched in sieging after 2-3 months, and T1 raids soon after. I"m sure there is some retarded producer at Funcom who insisted that the game be 1-80 because 80 is 10 more levels than WoW, so it will appear to have more than WoW.

People will put up with being bored at maxcap if they had a ton of fun until then, and there is at least something to do at maxcap (run high level instances, world PVP is fine in AoC). But putting in a ton of stuff, where nothing really works, and then spinning like mad trying to fix stuff every week (and breaking new things in the process) is just a horrid recipe for disaster.

Which was, ironically, the most fun way to pay a pen and paper RPG. <3 "The only rule is that there are no rules."

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Haha, totally true. Except with MMOs its more like The only rule is that there are shitty rules.

Ngruk said:

Typing semi 2 handed here. Am I the only playing customer here that is blown away by all the "patches" and what are in these patches? Listen, I am shooting for the moon and I know it"s impossible (release a game with ZERO bugs), that much I get. If that"s the goal you will NEVER release a game.

That being said, I am blown away by what I am seeing "patched" after games launch. Total class overhauls and revamps, hundreds of broken NPC"s, quests, "fixed", just TONS of stuff that screams, to me anyway, WHY WASN"T I FIXED BEFORE YOU MADE SOMEONE PAY FOR ME?

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Please never point out that you fixed typos in your game. It takes longer to add the notification that you changed a typo than it does to change the typo and looks really unpirfesianal.

Ngruk said:

Typing semi 2 handed here. Am I the only playing customer here that is blown away by all the "patches" and what are in these patches? Listen, I am shooting for the moon and I know it"s impossible (release a game with ZERO bugs), that much I get. If that"s the goal you will NEVER release a game.

That being said, I am blown away by what I am seeing "patched" after games launch. Total class overhauls and revamps, hundreds of broken NPC"s, quests, "fixed", just TONS of stuff that screams, to me anyway, WHY WASN"T I FIXED BEFORE YOU MADE SOMEONE PAY FOR ME?

This is aimed at no particular game, but Ut made a rant a long time ago that still holds true today. Companies are now using the patching tool as a development product and late beta stage project.

Problem is we as players are allowing it to continue.

THere is no simple fix or solution, hell even Blizzard does it. But if you look at their patches from the last year it seems to be much more geared to fixing post launch content and IP stuff than anything and given how much content they"ve added, I accept that.

Seems like we are in a day and an age where companies are patching in "fun" after they launch a game.

Amazing.

Click to expand...

Even Regular console games are now being patched after they are released. I dont know if you xbox it or not, but put in any game and 80 percent of all games have been patched now.

I just think when games go through QA testing they have probably a handful of people that test the games. Hell, even in beta for mmo"s they have a few thousand maybe. Then when shit gets released you have 100k to millions of new minds thinking of ways to exploit. I just dont think anything is going to come out now days without needing a patch. At least in this day and age we can now get something fixed.

Ngruk said:

Typing semi 2 handed here. Am I the only playing customer here that is blown away by all the "patches" and what are in these patches? Listen, I am shooting for the moon and I know it"s impossible (release a game with ZERO bugs), that much I get. If that"s the goal you will NEVER release a game.

That being said, I am blown away by what I am seeing "patched" after games launch. Total class overhauls and revamps, hundreds of broken NPC"s, quests, "fixed", just TONS of stuff that screams, to me anyway, WHY WASN"T I FIXED BEFORE YOU MADE SOMEONE PAY FOR ME?

This is aimed at no particular game, but Ut made a rant a long time ago that still holds true today. Companies are now using the patching tool as a development product and late beta stage project.

Problem is we as players are allowing it to continue.

THere is no simple fix or solution, hell even Blizzard does it. But if you look at their patches from the last year it seems to be much more geared to fixing post launch content and IP stuff than anything and given how much content they"ve added, I accept that.

Seems like we are in a day and an age where companies are patching in "fun" after they launch a game.

Amazing.

Click to expand...

I"ll believe it when I see it. All the evidence we have to go on is the MMO"s that have been released so far. And by far the most polished at launch was WoW. But I and many others can attest to the fact that there were some major things wrong with the game at launch. Here"s a small taste of it:

- major class overhauls were needed and eventually took place on a patch to patch basis (warlocks at launch were just a mess for example)

- there were content gaps with some zones having little to no point to them

- end game content was hardly even tested (old-old-school Stratholme....*shutter*)

- only basic pvp was in the game

- the only raid content (MC) was in worse shape than BWL when it was first added

- instead of fixing the endgame dungeons they just let people 10 and 15-man them to compensate for them being unbalanced.


I hope your game is the first to avoid all the launch problems, but I wouldn"t bet on it. Maybe it"s just unavoidable unless you plan on having a beta that lasts twice as long as most games.

kcxiv said:

Even Regular console games are now being patched after they are released. I dont know if you xbox it or not, but put in any game and 80 percent of all games have been patched now.

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While true, I"m not sure that it"s fair to compare the plethora of patches an MMO will ship to that of a console patch, which is required to go through a certification process that is external to the studio.

Don"t get me wrong, I"m not arguing that the "ship now, patch later" attitude isn"t a matter of concern...just saying.

It"s more than that kcxiv, but you"re right.

The fact is if you can release a game that"s so perfect it doesn"t need patching, it"s going to be a closed game with completely linear progression that becomes stale faster than you can say "Tic-tac-toe". We"re not talking about single-player games here, this is the MMO forum. And MMO"s are never, ever perfect. No one plays a single-player game (no matter how perfect) 40 hours a week for 9 years.

Build open systems. This is why EQ was great. They gave us tools, we the players turned it into techniques. Kiting, FD pulling, Chain-pets, AE groups, you name it. This was only possible from an "open system". Today, most Devs mitigate this by forcing us into "closed abilities" which can"t be used beyond their original purpose. You want "perfect"? There"s always Chess, Checkers, etc..

I want a game that patches. I want a game that makes mistakes. I want a team who understands this and appropriately adjusts to the situation. Otherwise you"re just cloning shit that"s already been done, and we have enough of that already. There"s absolutely no way to make a game with fresh mechanics that can be fully tested in alpha/beta phase. Even a year later people will figure out things you never could"ve anticipated. This is what makes a good system, and eventually a good game. Anyone who says otherwise needs to get the fuck out of their Ivory Tower and start releasing games to prove it.

Jait said:

It"s more than that kcxiv, but you"re right.

The fact is if you can release a game that"s so perfect it doesn"t need patching, it"s going to be a closed game with completely linear progression that becomes stale faster than you can say "Tic-tac-toe". We"re not talking about single-player games here, this is the MMO forum. And MMO"s are never, ever perfect. No one plays a single-player game (no matter how perfect) 40 hours a week for 9 years.

Build open systems. This is why EQ was great. They gave us tools, we the players turned it into techniques. Kiting, FD pulling, Chain-pets, AE groups, you name it. This was only possible from an "open system". Today, most Devs mitigate this by forcing us into "closed abilities" which can"t be used beyond their original purpose. You want "perfect"? There"s always Chess, Checkers, etc..

I want a game that patches. I want a game that makes mistakes. I want a team who understands this and appropriately adjusts to the situation. Otherwise you"re just cloning shit that"s already been done, and we have enough of that already. There"s absolutely no way to make a game with fresh mechanics that can be fully tested in alpha/beta phase. Even a year later people will figure out things you never could"ve anticipated. This is what makes a good system, and eventually a good game. Anyone who says otherwise needs to get the fuck out of their Ivory Tower and start releasing games to prove it.

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I"m with you, but I think the days of games like EQ are pretty much over. At least until someone reinvents the genre and comes up with a total new system.

kcxiv said:

Even Regular console games are now being patched after they are released. I dont know if you xbox it or not, but put in any game and 80 percent of all games have been patched now.

I just think when games go through QA testing they have probably a handful of people that test the games. Hell, even in beta for mmo"s they have a few thousand maybe. Then when shit gets released you have 100k to millions of new minds thinking of ways to exploit. I just dont think anything is going to come out now days without needing a patch. At least in this day and age we can now get something fixed.

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Yes, he said what he"s seeing patched. Not that there are patches.

No console game has had patching done to the extent of the most-fiddled-with PC games, MMO or not, have had.

Fixing some issue or quibble is not the same thing as totally revamping a class from the ground up or reenvisioning how to make the largest scale pvp fight function. Having an idea and running with it once people have the box purchased is not going to happen any more, even flagshipping people with the lure of infinite subscriptions or what have you is a joke.

As mentioned before, even WoW had to do this level of patching to some degree, so while there"s always going to be overreaching there aren"t enough MMO examples to make it indicative of anything necessary. Would people have been too deep into EQ2 to appreciate WoW if they had waited a few more months? At what point can you stop saying "in a few more months it will be more appropriate to launch?"

There is simply a lapse in the testing process if one of the major building blocks in the game - the class someone plays - needs to be rethought after people raid and say that the class is extremely dull.

Of course, the cash burns away as that level of polish is applied. WoW had the fact that it was taking the edge off of EQ and other MMOs in its corner.

You can"t possibly make a MMO more streamlined interface- and accessibility-wise than WoW was - even at launch considering server issues. WoW has simply forced people"s standards into a good place regarding MMOs, unfortunately that puts a tall order on competition.

AOC lost and continues to lose plenty of people who would have stuck around through this launch if other games didn"t do it better. Double whammy for actually having made an MMO before.

column said:

PostScript* there is one thing that EQ adopted from its MUD roots that I"ve yet to see another game use,and that is the guide system to help with CS,new players,and police exploiters. Thats something every MMO should think about useing.

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Could you extrapolate more on what this guide system was like?

It was a flaming pile of shit used and abused by the worst people possible that you could have policing your playerbase. They were uninformed, idealistic, sloppy, disgruntled, angry at life in general, or all of the above. It was a system easily corrupted and implemented even worse. To become a guide, they asked you questions like "What"s the NPC that"s alive for three fractions of a second in the single most unvisited, remote part of the online world of EverQuest" -- and they fucking meant it.

Pretty sure I"d rather get fucked by a donkey than play in another pile of shit guide system.

Horse said:

Yes, he said what he"s seeing patched. Not that there are patches.

No console game has had patching done to the extent of the most-fiddled-with PC games, MMO or not, have had.

Fixing some issue or quibble is not the same thing as totally revamping a class from the ground up or reenvisioning how to make the largest scale pvp fight function. Having an idea and running with it once people have the box purchased is not going to happen any more, even flagshipping people with the lure of infinite subscriptions or what have you is a joke.

As mentioned before, even WoW had to do this level of patching to some degree, so while there"s always going to be overreaching there aren"t enough MMO examples to make it indicative of anything necessary. Would people have been too deep into EQ2 to appreciate WoW if they had waited a few more months? At what point can you stop saying "in a few more months it will be more appropriate to launch?"

There is simply a lapse in the testing process if one of the major building blocks in the game - the class someone plays - needs to be rethought after people raid and say that the class is extremely dull.

Of course, the cash burns away as that level of polish is applied. WoW had the fact that it was taking the edge off of EQ and other MMOs in its corner.

You can"t possibly make a MMO more streamlined interface- and accessibility-wise than WoW was - even at launch considering server issues. WoW has simply forced people"s standards into a good place regarding MMOs, unfortunately that puts a tall order on competition.

AOC lost and continues to lose plenty of people who would have stuck around through this launch if other games didn"t do it better. Double whammy for actually having made an MMO before.

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Yea the thing is other than WoW, AoC is actualy the most complete MMO at release. They just fucked up by making the leveling curve too fast thus exposing the content gap faster.

CnCGOD said:

Yea the thing is other than WoW, AoC is actualy the most complete MMO at release.

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You are on some serious crack.

Edit: removed f bombs

Twobit Whore said:

You are on some serious crack.

Edit: removed f bombs

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Ive played them all, name one in better shape content wise.

UO- Content was all in player interaction, bugs galore (Great game but the bugs were pretty epic)
EQ- 2 doungens and 2 raid bosses at launch, horrible ballance, quests? What quests? bugs galore
AC- Didnt play enough to tell
AO- No content > 100 literaly, buggy beyond all others
DaOC- Horrible ballance issues, no itemization, broken mechanics
EQ2- Didnt play enough (wow concurrency etc) but felt unfinnished at launch
LOTRO- No PvP, No high end content, class ballance, weak combat mechanics, meaningless crafting
Shadowbane- Great PvP but no content, horrible bugs, broken mechanics, lag, sb.exe
Starwars Galaxies- Do I really need to comment?
Vanguard- Bugs, content gaps, performance, not to mention the fun being misssing

many other games that didnt make the cut ... quit them because the issues were pretty bad.