ToeMissile
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Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
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One system that I thought went really well was blind bidding. You had 3 rounds and each person interested in the item would send a tell with how much they bid. The officer would say in raid,"Round 1 Uber Shield". Then everyone would send that person a tell with how much they wanted to bid. Then Round 2 would be like "Round 2 Uber Shield, 34DKP high bid. At the end of the third round you got the item if you had the high bid.
That way you were not pissed at your fellow guild mate for "Jacking up the price", and if you really wanted an item, you would get it.
I hear the argument all the time on how the MT and Mhealer etc should get the loot first, and parts of it I agree because it helps out the guild in the long run, but I feel DKP offers everyone a fair chance at getting the "uber loot" and causes alot less drama.
Plus if you are the MT chances are you will be there the most and thus have the most points to bid on.
After a while some of us got smart and for the class only gear we would send tells to each other saying Ill bid 1 this time and you get next etc. I think that really helps with promoting a tight knit guild. I can"t think of how many times I heard the comment," Oh she is just getting that item because she is the guild leaders RL Girlfriend.
When it comes to drama in a guild, it is always a good thing when you have less of it.
That way you were not pissed at your fellow guild mate for "Jacking up the price", and if you really wanted an item, you would get it.
I hear the argument all the time on how the MT and Mhealer etc should get the loot first, and parts of it I agree because it helps out the guild in the long run, but I feel DKP offers everyone a fair chance at getting the "uber loot" and causes alot less drama.
Plus if you are the MT chances are you will be there the most and thus have the most points to bid on.
After a while some of us got smart and for the class only gear we would send tells to each other saying Ill bid 1 this time and you get next etc. I think that really helps with promoting a tight knit guild. I can"t think of how many times I heard the comment," Oh she is just getting that item because she is the guild leaders RL Girlfriend.
When it comes to drama in a guild, it is always a good thing when you have less of it.
Agraza
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You form a clique to get gear over random people you"d rather not have your tags and you"re claiming it"s the anti-drama. How long is it you sit over a dead body deciding loot with your silent bidx3 system anyway? 5 minutes? You gamed a sad little system that takes too long. Bravo.
AL"s loot system is really the best I"ve seen and I"ll try to explain it keeping it as simple as possible. Item"s have a set price generally ranging from 1 up to 20 or so for the best item in an expansion and the prices of all of the items are within that range based on the quality of the item. A middle of the line item would cost say, 10 on average. The values can be adjusted but that"s the premise.
Bidding is done by tiers. Whoever is in the highest tier automatically wins the item and gets it by default at the price. The price never changes. If two people are within the same tier, then it goes to a random roll and each DKP they have counts as 1 towards the roll but typically people are not within the same tier.
Each week there is an adjustment to your DKP based on the total DKP granted. Typically around 30-60% of the DKP granted each week is taken away. This means if you are inactive you will actually lose DKP and eventually go negative.
As the total DKP given out is above the DKP spent per expansion, people who have been around for a long time with high activity are fairly high up the DKP ladder. As the amount of DKP they have is well above the cost of the items, they can literally take every item first.
This is where most guild"s have a problem because a new player really has no chance at winning an item over someone who has been there a long time and that isn"t likely to change anytime soon. The reason that I like it is because it consistently gives loot to the players with the highest long-term activity. A lot of the gear is going right into the hands of the players that are going to be at the raids. You don"t have to worry about people not being active with the items, or quitting after they get loot. By the time the newer players are getting loot the older players already have what they want so it would be rotting anyway.
Basically, it is the best system for making sure the highest percentage of loot dropped gets used to help the guild.
Bidding is done by tiers. Whoever is in the highest tier automatically wins the item and gets it by default at the price. The price never changes. If two people are within the same tier, then it goes to a random roll and each DKP they have counts as 1 towards the roll but typically people are not within the same tier.
Each week there is an adjustment to your DKP based on the total DKP granted. Typically around 30-60% of the DKP granted each week is taken away. This means if you are inactive you will actually lose DKP and eventually go negative.
As the total DKP given out is above the DKP spent per expansion, people who have been around for a long time with high activity are fairly high up the DKP ladder. As the amount of DKP they have is well above the cost of the items, they can literally take every item first.
This is where most guild"s have a problem because a new player really has no chance at winning an item over someone who has been there a long time and that isn"t likely to change anytime soon. The reason that I like it is because it consistently gives loot to the players with the highest long-term activity. A lot of the gear is going right into the hands of the players that are going to be at the raids. You don"t have to worry about people not being active with the items, or quitting after they get loot. By the time the newer players are getting loot the older players already have what they want so it would be rotting anyway.
Basically, it is the best system for making sure the highest percentage of loot dropped gets used to help the guild.
Genjiro
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Didn"t Thotts alt have full loot over mains in Afterlife back in EQ? Or you could look to the other end of the extreme (us) where Tigole and his amazing rimjob hand picked douche bag brigade handed Pardo loot (YAY FAIR LOOT COUNCIL) time and time again (when he rarely if ever raided) over people who were there night in and night out busting their balls for the guild.
That"s why I fucking hate loot-centric games and look at WoW now and sort of just laugh my ass off because I can"t imagine subjecting myself to that shitty raid scene any longer (just arena now, and even that"s boring which is why I never log in). Its one big loot upgrade/pinata, that"s it, that is the entire point....upgrade your purple loot slots....nothing dynamic in the world etc which even has anything to do with the RTS, which is why I have come to prefer pvp games with worldy objectives, resource control, and massive killing of one another. Unfortunately, all those suck too. Item-centric games are just so fucking stale and boring, so is raiding with a bunch of assholes night in and night out.
Maybe someday when the technology is available, there will be a mmorpg like NWN with a content creation system that is feasible and easily usable for non CS majors....where the community can really emulate an online experience akin to a pen and paper DnD session, and where the encounters can be something new and surprising other than playing raid versions of DDR....here comes fire wall push --> --> <----, yay yay wow that is engaging! Fuck, I"m rambling....but mmos are basically like jerking off. When you"re 15, its amazingly fun and exciting, once you hit 30 you just stare at the screen/dick with a sad look on your face saying "why am I doing this"....and then say fuck it and just go watch tv since its all a bunch of regurgitated garbage where the point is to apparently to look at your inventory screen and look like the natural male enhancement guy in the commercials.
WTB something earth shattering like the aforementioned NWN type game with true player driven content which allows the characters to actually feel heroic.
That"s why I fucking hate loot-centric games and look at WoW now and sort of just laugh my ass off because I can"t imagine subjecting myself to that shitty raid scene any longer (just arena now, and even that"s boring which is why I never log in). Its one big loot upgrade/pinata, that"s it, that is the entire point....upgrade your purple loot slots....nothing dynamic in the world etc which even has anything to do with the RTS, which is why I have come to prefer pvp games with worldy objectives, resource control, and massive killing of one another. Unfortunately, all those suck too. Item-centric games are just so fucking stale and boring, so is raiding with a bunch of assholes night in and night out.
Maybe someday when the technology is available, there will be a mmorpg like NWN with a content creation system that is feasible and easily usable for non CS majors....where the community can really emulate an online experience akin to a pen and paper DnD session, and where the encounters can be something new and surprising other than playing raid versions of DDR....here comes fire wall push --> --> <----, yay yay wow that is engaging! Fuck, I"m rambling....but mmos are basically like jerking off. When you"re 15, its amazingly fun and exciting, once you hit 30 you just stare at the screen/dick with a sad look on your face saying "why am I doing this"....and then say fuck it and just go watch tv since its all a bunch of regurgitated garbage where the point is to apparently to look at your inventory screen and look like the natural male enhancement guy in the commercials.
WTB something earth shattering like the aforementioned NWN type game with true player driven content which allows the characters to actually feel heroic.
Well, Afterlife"s DKP system was pioneering but certainly not perfect for WoW. Any system that carries excess DKP from one instance to the next, nevermind through expansions, is unlikely to succeed.
Who knows what this game will look like though so something like that might be great. I prefer Loot Council but whatever works for you is excellent.
EDIT: There"s no Drama like old Drama! In retrospect, any loot games Tigole may have played back then sure seem to have been worthwhile in the end.
Who knows what this game will look like though so something like that might be great. I prefer Loot Council but whatever works for you is excellent.
EDIT: There"s no Drama like old Drama! In retrospect, any loot games Tigole may have played back then sure seem to have been worthwhile in the end.
Genjiro
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Yea, thats pretty much why a lot of the old school LoS left, including guys like myself and Tenaj who were original founders of the guild. We wanted no more part in watching the Tigole-Pardo reacharound lootfest when we would stay up late/after they logged to get people geared up/flagged etc.Northerner said:
I"ll NEVER forget the day we got our first kill on some new raid mob (something in ToV....forget what the mob was)....and as loot was being decided Tenaj whispers me" watch Tigole give the loot to all 3 Blizzard guys (3 items dropped), he had lunch with them today".
Two seconds later, Tigole says to the guild "grats Daelomin, Thatia, and Ariel(pardo)"...ie, Blizzard crew. We were literally falling out of our chairs laughing at his amazing prediction, it wasn"t long after that we and some of the other old school guys like Saldor all left for Sullon Zek. I"d take DKP over that shit anyday.
English mother fucker, DO YOU SPEAK IT!Agraza said:
Once people get used to the system it goes by increadible fast. You only allow 30 seconds per round and you have different people do different items. How is this any different then everyone linking the gear that they are going to replace and then the officers taking 5+ minutes discussing who gets it and why. If people dont see the message about the bid and time runs out. Too bad. Pay more attention next time.
And yes this type of system causes alot less drama then loot council. Case in point Genjiro story. That shit happens all the time in high end "uber" guilds. Even as a guild leader if you think you are being fair, people will still talk shit about this or that. bla bla bla.
At least with DKP is a solid non bias system. All I would like to have is a button that a single button gives out points to a raid. The number could easily be stored right next to the comments of each person in the guild log.
Easy peesy
The expansion thing never really effected us much. People would just save up dkp while we had raids on farm then go nuts on gear. But after the first week or so people overbid everything and it was back to normal. They basicly just burned up all the saved DKP on the new uber items. So I don"t think it was that big of a problem.Northerner said:
But then again that is an easy fix. Just let everyone know that DKP is being wiped at the expansion release.
Well, I had heard a rumor here and there about that shakedown and pardo"s presence (and others but whatever) was pretty well known eventually. Still, LoS seemed like a generally happy place later on and I don"t know if it was just because kaplan was stepping back and eventually quit. Hell, most EQ guilds had periods of great drama one way or the other and The Nameless aimed to be cutting edge in that regard.
I"m with ya on the DKP love for EQ though, it worked well there for many guilds and cut down on drama to a large degree. Then again, many others did just fine with LC or whatever suited.
EDIT for clarity: AL"s system was reasonable for EQ and was adjusted quickly through time as items devalued. Hell, I used to browse certain rogues" History to evaluate upgrades quite often. For WoW though, carrying DKP forward through expansions would be suicidal I"d think. Hell, even from one instance release to the next is questionable.
I"m with ya on the DKP love for EQ though, it worked well there for many guilds and cut down on drama to a large degree. Then again, many others did just fine with LC or whatever suited.
EDIT for clarity: AL"s system was reasonable for EQ and was adjusted quickly through time as items devalued. Hell, I used to browse certain rogues" History to evaluate upgrades quite often. For WoW though, carrying DKP forward through expansions would be suicidal I"d think. Hell, even from one instance release to the next is questionable.
Who would set the item "costs"? Was it a general database or website, or would someone in the guild just go at it? It seems like an awful lot of extra busy work.
Agraza
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The officers I suspect. I"ve dealt with many clones of their design. Fixed prices are quicker than bidding, and cut down on people gaming the system. People will always game a currency no matter how you set it up though. It"s wonderful when you can get by without one.
Thott did most of the mathematical framework as best I recall and from there the item values were essentially derivable. The full AL system was exceptionally "fair" if you agreed with the basic concepts but the upkeep must have been quite a bitch back in those days and the time consumption wasn"t something most RLs would be willing to put up with anyhow. It is pretty trivial to implement as a web tool now.
I suppose you could base how much set points an item is off of item level (if they have something like that) or off the tier. But then you have items having the same cost from Hydross as well as Vashj, etc. I am sure it works well IF you can find someone to upkeep it.
Who"s to say Curt"s game is even going to have loot? You may be looting unicorn dust and fairy farts for all you know.
We still use the same dkp system, and for those in the guild it"s not a huge deal. Loot in WoW, as Genjiro said, is a joke. We run two raids to help lower DKP members get items such as BoH, or Illustration of the Dragon Soul.Northerner said:
I like loot council systems more, but the real aspect of that system is that you enable hand-me-downs if the loot council is smart.
These days that can"t exist because everything is bound to the player if they used it. That"s why I really hope they allow guilds some sort of guild-locked item system, where a guild can bind an item to their guild. Perhaps with an upper limit per character or some other feature to ensure players who get kicked out unjustly/want to move on aren"t totally naked when they depart.
I think that idea is at least worth investigating.
These days that can"t exist because everything is bound to the player if they used it. That"s why I really hope they allow guilds some sort of guild-locked item system, where a guild can bind an item to their guild. Perhaps with an upper limit per character or some other feature to ensure players who get kicked out unjustly/want to move on aren"t totally naked when they depart.
I think that idea is at least worth investigating.
D&DO has an interesting loot system. Chests in instances, whether randomly placed or from mob or boss kills, generate loot individually. Everyone can open the chests but each person can only see and loot the items that have been specifically generated for them.
Having officers/guild leaders decide who gets loot is a tragic flaw in MMO"s.
The badge system is much more conducive to a FUN game. Officer channel loot council basically just serves to make the poopsockers in guild leadership feel badass.
Random loot and loot councils, DKP, /random, whatever... those are a failed and antiquated system. People should be rewarded by the GAME, not by some officer on an ego-trip. And maybe then, Bards wouldn"t have to be LAST in the guild to get a Vindi BP.
The badge system is much more conducive to a FUN game. Officer channel loot council basically just serves to make the poopsockers in guild leadership feel badass.
Random loot and loot councils, DKP, /random, whatever... those are a failed and antiquated system. People should be rewarded by the GAME, not by some officer on an ego-trip. And maybe then, Bards wouldn"t have to be LAST in the guild to get a Vindi BP.
