Roberts cracked a smile one day. We all cleared out, assuming the building was on fire.Gallenite said:
Turns out he was just chuckling over one of Curt"s idea emails.
Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
- Start date
Turns out he was just chuckling over one of Curt"s idea emails.
Dofus is Europe"s take on the myriad of asian browser-based games. It"s all written in flash (yep, the same flash you use), is completely multi-platform, lightweight, works on even computers that wouldn"t run vanilla WoW, and targets the teens/young adult.Zehn - Vhex said:
It"s not a MMORPG, it"s more of a MMOstrat (with big RPGish elements).
And it"s a free to play, with a premium version for "real". Which is why it gets so many players, the same way you get Runescape and all those other games at million players.
Big_w_powah
Trakanon Raider
- 1,887
- 750
What if the evasion is active evasion? Management of cool downs?Ninen said:
What if bosses have enrage/flurry type abilities (with some sort of pre-warning) that will wipe the fuck out of anybody that gets all the hits, but an evasion tank can pop a cool down and evade all/most of the hits? Something like the giant king summons the spirits of his ancestors and imbues his blade with the fury of the past, making it white hot and slice through any armor (thus completely negating mitigation). In that situation, the only method would be to evade.
What if the evasion tanks had a shit ton more hp than the mitigation tanks, and you had a boss that did unresistable magic damage, instead of physical damage. Pretty much the evasion tank is your best bet, because he will take less damage than the mitigation tank due to the mitigation tank"s mitigation being pointless (as well as the evasion tank"s)
Things like that could allow a properly done evasion tank to be viable, if not always optimal. Granted, in group content, the evasion tank and mitigation tank would be balanced to be fine (I.E. hard group content would probably be require blowing cool downs on a boss for either tank)
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
- 14,568
- 10,056
I already echoed the Eve sentiments. I couldn"t play the thing for more then 3 days.Zehn - Vhex said:
however, I would agree/argue their are many good things in Eve that can be learned from. take those good points, infuse more engaging gameplay, infuse interesting early game. And your starting to have something that would break out of the niche.
Evasion tanks work fine if the incoming damage is inherently more moderate and paced. If your choices are 75% evasion with 1000 hp, and your up against 600hp/hit hits, vs 75% dr with 1000hp and those 600hp/hit being reduced to 150/hit, the DR is clearly better . Its more stable, can be healed by hots, auras, you can"t be instagibbed by bad luck, or RNG.
But if we are talking 75% evasion with 1000hp and 150hp/hits, vs 75DR with 1000hp and 150hp/hits reduced to 37hp/hit, well this is much more viable.
Big_w_powah
Trakanon Raider
- 1,887
- 750
Over 100 hits, assuming no RNG stupidity, the evasion tank will take 150x25, or 3750. The DR tank will take 3700. We all know that the RNG fucks us, and chances are the evasion tank will take more hits.Caliane said:
The thing The DR"s mitigation would need to be reduced to 50-65%, if the evasive tank is 75%. This allows the POTENTIAL for the evasion tank ot be better; and lets face it, when the potential for it to be much worse is there, its fucking needed.
That forces the choice between playing the RNG, and MAYBE needing more healing (allowing heal/dps hybrids to dps until they need to throw out the oh shit heal), or playing the smart card and knowing you"ll need more healing (forcing all your healers to heal)
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
- 399
- 1,245
Why even bother? Why make one a niche tank and the other not? Why not just make evasion tanking another aspect of the tank classes themselves?
Going back to Zehn the MMO again, the soldier, ninja and psionist all have a base 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance in similar gear. The solider again, does it via heavy armor and blocking/parrying attacks, the ninja by rolling with the hits to minimize damage and by dodging attacks and the psionist does it by reducing the kinetic impact of attacks and phasing out of existence.
Then with the rest of their defensive abilities you make sure the base defensive part is the same, but can give them a myriad of "other" effects.
For example, all of them cam switch to "evasive" mode for a few seconds during a rape phase. For example, the Ninja for a short while dodges most attacks and immediately counter-attacks for good damage. The soldier simply hides behind his shield and the psionist absorbs all the attacks and then reverses the energy of the blows back at the target in a huge counter burst.
Then anti-magic damage. The ninja simply dodges the spell, the psionist channels the magic into his psi-blade and for a few seconds increases damage dealt. The soldier however spell reflects a portion of the magical blasts back at the target.
And so forth.
Tack on the fact that they"ll be also dpsing in different manners with the soldier using mostly his shield to deal out brutal rape, the ninja flipping out and swan diving with his sword into the enemy and the psionist pulling some Jedi style force choking action, and they"ll feel different enough.
Blizzard has shown that creating sub-niche"s for classes is a universally bad idea.
Going back to Zehn the MMO again, the soldier, ninja and psionist all have a base 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance in similar gear. The solider again, does it via heavy armor and blocking/parrying attacks, the ninja by rolling with the hits to minimize damage and by dodging attacks and the psionist does it by reducing the kinetic impact of attacks and phasing out of existence.
Then with the rest of their defensive abilities you make sure the base defensive part is the same, but can give them a myriad of "other" effects.
For example, all of them cam switch to "evasive" mode for a few seconds during a rape phase. For example, the Ninja for a short while dodges most attacks and immediately counter-attacks for good damage. The soldier simply hides behind his shield and the psionist absorbs all the attacks and then reverses the energy of the blows back at the target in a huge counter burst.
Then anti-magic damage. The ninja simply dodges the spell, the psionist channels the magic into his psi-blade and for a few seconds increases damage dealt. The soldier however spell reflects a portion of the magical blasts back at the target.
And so forth.
Tack on the fact that they"ll be also dpsing in different manners with the soldier using mostly his shield to deal out brutal rape, the ninja flipping out and swan diving with his sword into the enemy and the psionist pulling some Jedi style force choking action, and they"ll feel different enough.
Blizzard has shown that creating sub-niche"s for classes is a universally bad idea.
Really? How is that? I am curious to know whether your opinion is that it is, or some data I haven"t seen is?Zehn - Vhex said:
Blizzard has gained more new subs since WotLK than 99% of the MMO"s out there have as an entire base.
That"s in about 6 months mind you.
I don"t believe they"ve created the "end all be all" but I chuckle every time I hear how bad they"ve done things, or how their demise is imminent.
There are MORE than enough MMO"s out there to get your fix, whatever that may be, but almost 13mm people believe WoW is that fix, which kicks the ever living crap out of everything else in it"s space.
WoW is just an absolute phenomenon. I don"t think you can relate subscription rates to design choices at this point. I"m pretty sure they could do anything they wanted, terrible design or great design, and the subs will just keep rising. It"s unlike anything else at this point. It"s grown to the point that it can"t help but keep snowballing.
James
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 2,804
- 7,056
The opinion is from the mindset of even the most casually informed raiders. Not sure there"s data that you can attribute to the utter gayness of tank balance in WoW (certainly not subscription data), but pretty much everyone but Death Knights thinks it sucks pretty hardcore right now, and they"ll think it sucks pretty hardcore next patch as Paladins skip into the scene on a rainbow fucking road, wearing flowers, and singing old Bette Midler songs and completely out perform every other tank that exists by simply facerolling their keyboard.Ngruk said:
But hey, if you say tank balance is good, then OK.
Depends what he means by sub niche. Like tanking only X types of fights? Or dpsing only underwater?Ngruk said:
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
- 399
- 1,245
I said nothing about their imminent demise. I"m saying stuff they"ve publicly admitted themselves. One of those things was trying to create niche roles within roles.Ngruk said:
They openly admit making mages a "niche AoE damage" class at launch was a terrible idea so over time they"ve made AoE damage just something everyone does.
They"ve spent the last 3 years trying to balance Paladins/Druids not having an AE heal. They broke down and gave Druids an AE heal and now with the glyph plus beacon system in 3.2 Paladins will finally be able to "sorta" AE since you can pretty much just non-stop spam HL on the melee pile.
Most recently they admitted that making the DK the "cooldown tank" was a bad move because it gave DK"s a hard counter to predictable mob abilities and now they"re making them more streamlined with paladins/warriors/druids.
At the end of the day, why make something niche that only one class gets when you can make 5 different flavors of that ability and spread it around? That"d be like saying, "Okay, Paladins are the buffing class" and remove all the buffs all the other classes get and making Paladins the only one with buffs.
Granted you don"t want it to be as lame as Paladin gets holy strike that does 1000 damage and deathknight gets unholy strike that does 1000 damage, but you get the overall picture.
This exactly... WoW is kind of the perfect storm of gaming right now. It is a great game built on an rock solid IP. Was that enough to ensure a 2600% increase in subs over the previous generation"s flagship game?Grave said:
It"s success is more cultural then it is mechanical. I lose count when I try to think about all the people that I know in real life that have either played or dabbled in WoW. Many of them on the complete fringe of gaming (almost equitable to the Wii crowd). WoW is Facebook.
Precisely, and that"s the problem with all of these games that look at WoW as their design bible. I"m not saying WoW didn"t do anything right, far from it, it"s the best designed MMO ever made and I can say that even through my EQ nostalgia. But it"s far, far from perfect at the same time.The Muze said:
WoW"s success stems from something else, something we"ve rarely seen in gaming: it has itself become a pop-culture item. I don"t think any other MMO can or will ever do the same.
Simply copying WoW is not a path to success, but probably closer to a path to failure. You aren"t going to win over the WoW crowd, and those that are not playing WoW are not playing it for a reason and don"t want more of the same. That"s the era of MMOs we"re currently in unfortunately, and I can only hope 2010 and beyond finally see it change.
Agreed. Kinda. I think the next big mmo will need to be something that plays like WoW mechanically, but isn"t just some sort of clone. Sci-fi, post Apoc, or some variation of this would be a great addition to the genre right now.Grave said:
This is exactly what I"ve been waiting for myself. Something post apoc like a Fallout 3 universe or a type of Sci-fi set in something like Mass Effect"s universe. MMO"s in general need to start trying to move on to more than just the usual swords and magic route.Rayne said:
I would be very happy to see some MMORPG with 3-6 classes, where they have unique content for each of them. Conan did this a bit in Tortage, WoW has the odd quest line and faction, which, while awesome, never really got fully developed. Something like old LBRS farming runs with 2-5 rogues ( avoidace tanking, yo!), mages destroying trash pulls with 4 polys and the last mob frozen and killed, etc etc. I know it"s probably not possible to pump out content for 10 classes, but the approach of SW:TOR gives me hopes. You could go nuts with it and create ladders of players and mentoring system based on your class. Joining guild is problem for a lot of people, so this one would give people some sense of place within the game.
The next star wars mmo could be the one, based on IP alone. But if the last attempt is any indication, star wars will fail since everyone will want to be a jedi.
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
- 399
- 1,245
Don"t think it necessarily has to be a setting change. We"d been playing the gold box games for years when BG came out and we"d been playing EQ for years when WoW came out. The fantasy setting is fine. Don"t get me wrong, I"d cream a little inside if a decent Battletech or Shadowrun MMO was in the works.
To be honest, I don"t think we"re going to see a "next big mmo" until Blizzard releases Starcraft the MMO. They"re like the Harry Potter of MMO"s. Insanely popular but Harry Potter didn"t suddenly create a huge surge of people who were suddenly interested in fantasy novels and Ed Greenwood.
It"s like trying to figure out who"s going to be the next big fantasy novelist and all we"ve gotten so far is that little shit who ripped off starwars and wrote Eragon or whatever.
To be honest, I don"t think we"re going to see a "next big mmo" until Blizzard releases Starcraft the MMO. They"re like the Harry Potter of MMO"s. Insanely popular but Harry Potter didn"t suddenly create a huge surge of people who were suddenly interested in fantasy novels and Ed Greenwood.
It"s like trying to figure out who"s going to be the next big fantasy novelist and all we"ve gotten so far is that little shit who ripped off starwars and wrote Eragon or whatever.
I agree. The starcraft MMO will be what everyone plays after WoW.
Shame,I would love to see a vanilla EQ clone done with the same type of fantasy setting.
Even if it didn"t do well, I would still love it.
Shame,I would love to see a vanilla EQ clone done with the same type of fantasy setting.
Even if it didn"t do well, I would still love it.