Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

I think the idea that you have to limit your game to a small number of classes, and thus play styles, is wrong.


Look at WoW. You have 8 classes (or is it 9 now with DK? I don"t pay attention to shit), yeah.

But a Demo Lock plays a LOT differently than a BM hunter. A Marks Hunter plays differently than a BM hunter. A Aff lock plays differently than a destro lock.

A shadow priest is fairly unique, where as a holy priest plays differently than it.


WoW has 8 classes, but AT LEAST 2-3x that in play styles. Thats the key.

To use locks for example; Do I wanna be weaving dots, do I wanna be blowing shit up with fire? Do I wanna have a super badass pet that is most of my damage while I weave dots AND blow shit up with fire, to a lesser effect than aff/destro?

It all is interesting.

Bongk said:

Ok so you say that wow does stuff right and everyone else is wrong. Lets dissect by numbers.

1. Warhammer has 23 total classes, regardless of how you spec they play pretty much identically. Wow has what 8 classes with talent specs that basically make them 3 unique classes which equals 24 classes, so by warhammer having 1 less that has to many classes and wow did it right?

2. warhammer did it wrong by having 2 factions, but wow did it right by having 2 factions. umm ok.

3.they really are the same classes, every core ability stays the same and is equal on both sides. There is no major differences at all. Just because a Chosen and a KOTBS are named different they are the same class at the core.

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1) WoW did not have 24 classes, it had 8. It"s a ridiculous comparison. The fact that they only had 8 is what allowed them to customize each class so much. Just because the classes have some customization that in some cases changes the playstyle does not make them different classes. The unique nature of the classes makes it more likely people will invest time and energy into a new class which keeps them playing longer. When there are too many classes, the playstyles of many of the classes are too similar for people to consider investing time into a new class. When each class is very unique, playing a new class provides a different gaming experience. That"s why it is better to have fewer classes with higher customization then to use too many classes with little difference in playstyle between many of the classes. Basically, you"ll find people are far more likely to try the different classes in WoW compared to other games.

2) It"s not a valid comparison because the goals of the games were different. Warhammer was focusing around open world PVP, WoW was not.

3) They were not the same. There were key differences between the classes that in some cases drastically altered class balance.

Mippo said:

2) WoW is not a pvp game. It"s not a valid comparison.

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Exactly. 2 set factions in a pure pvp game is a HUGE mistake because it makes realm population the all important factor when it comes to success. If faction A brings 300 people, and faction B bring 150... faction A wins just because its the popular choice. Assuming you are going to even use factions you HAVE to make it more then 2.

That way if faction A brings 300, and faction B only brings 150 all is not lost because faction C just side swiped faction A with their 150 making things far more interesting. Anyone who has played DAoC has seen this in action and its glorious. Factions are good times, and RvR is a mechanic I hope to see a lot more of in the future just don"t make the mistake of thinking 2 factions = good to go.

I also agree with too many classes = bad. If its a faction game you can call them different names, and give them their own "flavor" I guess but make sure they are really just the same class as their counter parts. Makes balance much neater. The "good guys" can throw fireballs, the "bad guys" can throw shadowbolts and the hippy faction can throw flowers for all I care... just make them all the same speed and deal the same damage.

Exactly, if you are making a pvp game the worst setup you can use is 2 factions because there is no way to balance the population. If the server is not sitting near 50/50 which in many cases they don"t, it really ruins the pvp when you either 1) always outnumber your opponent or 2) are always outnumbered.

What makes far more sense is using 1 faction which negates the need to worry about population or if you want to use a team concept using three teams so that the servers can balance themselves out. If one side gets too big, the other two sides can group up to take them out.

With only two factions, you have no recourse. If one side outnumbers the other side, it really ruins your game and it"s likely to happen. What made it even worse is that the sides in Warhammer used different classes so if the population perceives one side to be more powerful, more people will play that side. At least with identical classes you can negate the arguments regarding class balance between the teams.

EDIT: Since I know some of you are going to be outright retarded with the responses and someone will mention successful first person shooters using the two team concept I"ll go ahead and explain the difference before it comes up. Most first person shooters have population caps on each side so the games are running 4 vs 4, 12 vs 12 etc. The population is controlled and because it is, the two team concept is viable. It can also work in battlegrounds or scenarios which again controls the population. The two team concept is not good when population is not controlled such as in an open world pvp game like Warhammer.

UO"s skill system while nice is a horrible system once macroing programs are factored in. Unless you can 100% guarantee they can"t be used or you can stop the use of them the whole system is worthless.

One thing I would like to see is Sentient weapons somehow implemented. Somehow the weapons can fuck with your mind but still provide a benefit or a maybe a disability to your player from time to time. The hard part is making the weapon useful without it being totally worthless. My idea of a Sentient weapon would be that it would be an Artifact Weapon(only one on the server) but the wielder that found it would only wield till they die then it"s released back into the world for somebody else to find. The sword would have a lineage on the server and maybe you could put the stats on a website so you have see the previous wielder"s of the weapon.

My example: If Khazid"hea was put into a MMO, it would be a max level weapon with exceptional stats no matter what the level of the character that finds it. The downside to the sword is that random NPC"s attack you trying to obtain the sword from you. Characters with high charisma or an evil race with exceptional sword skills could lessen the random npc"s attacks as the sword would be happy with it"s wielder or the wielder could keep the swords thoughts at bay(high charisma). You would keep it till you die to an NPC. The NPC would then have the sword till somebody kills it albeit another NPC(the sword would make other NPC"s attack the NPC sword wielder) or a PC. The only flaw is that guilds could possibly keep the sword within the guild for a longass time if they are always around the person that dies. You would like to see the sword move around the server just not stuck within one guild. Also if the a PC obtains and decides not to log in for the next couple days it would be released back into the world at some random location.

Treesong said:

Yes, no skill system it seems. I like skill systems. I am glad we do not get class-branching though(it seems), which never was fun for me but I hope there is a unique twist to the class system. Did Ngruk already comment on something like subjobs?

One of the more unique approaches seems to be Heroes of Telara, which has 4 core classes(the obvious ones), and then an undisclosed number of subclasses that you can apply to your character on the fly when you loot one of these "subclass" runes or something. You can change these subclasses around and possibly can have more then one subclass at a time. Well, unique at least on paper.

I am getting very curious, we are getting a lot of hints lately from Ngruk.

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Not really hints, things you could have surmised based on the previous few hundred pages. We aren"t making my game for sure, that would be a huge mistake in some cases, but we will ALWAYS make games we want to play.

Before you scream, we aren"t making EQ3, I promise.

I am not seeing the WoW vs WAR comparisons other than they are fantasy MMO"s, both were built for entirely different audiences.

I disagree about WAR"s classes though, I think WAR had some of the most incredibly well done class mechanics I"ve ever seen. With the "classes" pretty much defined at the core (healers/tanks/DPS etc.) they added some kick ass game mechanics.

My problem was the game gets boring at the same time no matter what class you play.

Also was put off by the lack of depth in the PVE, which I know wasn"t the target audience but if you are creating a game for PvP focused game play, and relying on living breathing souls to populate that, what am I to do if I am one of the folks that plays all times? What about those off peak hours?

Some of the mechanics in Warhammer were really well done but that doesn"t mean they couldn"t have been condensed into fewer classes. I also loved the journal which recorded my kills, granted various titles etc. It"s "fluff" but at the same time, it"s something silly that results in players trying content they otherwise wouldn"t try simply to complete it on their journal. I also think the PQ system will probably be improved upon and seen in another game in the future.

There weren"t many bright spots though. Class balance was off, at least initially and it screwed the population so that most servers were imbalanced from the get go. The itemization was weak, the PVE was weak, the risk vs reward was off and while I don"t know what has changed but the initial zone control mechanic was quite poorly designed. There wasn"t much to keep the majority of players interested.

Ngruk said:

I disagree about WAR"s classes though, I think WAR had some of the most incredibly well done class mechanics I"ve ever seen. With the "classes" pretty much defined at the core (healers/tanks/DPS etc.) they added some kick ass game mechanics.

My problem was the game gets boring at the same time no matter what class you play.

Also was put off by the lack of depth in the PVE, which I know wasn"t the target audience but if you are creating a game for PvP focused game play, and relying on living breathing souls to populate that, what am I to do if I am one of the folks that plays all times? What about those off peak hours?

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I feel the same way about WAR. I loved my Witch Hunter as a class, I loved the PQ"s and open grouping system, and I liked the RvR areas if there were people around, but I did feel the world was lacking from a PvE point. Everytime I looked at the world map, with the paired zones and the way they connected I felt disconnected and more like a peon in some large PvP scheme.
At one end I liked all the war-related hustle and bustle going on with the scripted events and NPCs roaming about but on the other end the PvE content felt as if made subject to the whole war-effort too much.

I guess this is what the WAR IP is all about though but it just did not fit well with my usual going "from rags to riches" thing which makes a MMO fun for me. I like silly stuff like Cuburt in the Qeynos Sewers or finding Nerissa Clothspinners sister half a continent away.

I so hope to see stuff like the Public Quests and open grouping in other MMOs though.

WAR"s biggest issus to me is that you have to have good players on both realms to make the game fun (which you don"t have any control of it).

On the other hand, you only need to have a good guild in EQ/WoW/EQ2 to make the game fun to play.

James said:

Holla @ ya.

P.S. Get fucked, Zehn!

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What?! He just said RA"s world screams for class specific storylines. The fuck do you think I"ve been arguing for. 8(

I wonder if one of the characters will die and it"ll be so epic yet sorrowful and one of the better moments in the storyline because it shows that yes, the heroes are beatable but then the author will lamely bring him back just so he can institute some teenage highschool relationship drama for the protagonist of the series that nobody gives a shit about.

*coughWulfgarshouldhavestayeddeadcough*

Anyways...

Factions or not won"t matter. Even if you had perfectly equal sides you have no guarantee that an even number will show up to every fight. With 3 factions or more you"re assuming the two weaker sides will join up against the more powerful. More likely the two most powerful sides will stomp the weaker one. And even then you"re hoping for a 50/30/20 split so it"s relatively even. If you somehow get 33/33/33 then you just recreated your imbalanced scenario.

Even zero faction FFA usually leads to some superguild dominating the server.

I don"t propose a solution because there is none. If you"re going to have open world pvp with conquerable objectives and the like, shits always going to be imbalanced and you"re going to have to design around it.

If you just want pvp in your game as "something to do" I would honestly just have pop capped instanced pvp. On top of that make gear not matter. All attacks just do a set % of damage, all abilities have a pre-set pvp use and so forth. Gear is pretty much totally disabled and just there for looks. I"d go on but here"s the second half of a previous post about the same shit:



Anyways...

Personally I prefer factions that you join by choice then you"re assigned to by race if you"re going to have them for making pvp seem more logical.

Zehn - Vhex said:

What?! He just said RA"s world screams for class specific storylines. The fuck do you think I"ve been arguing for. 8(

I wonder if one of the characters will die and it"ll be so epic yet sorrowful and one of the better moments in the storyline because it shows that yes, the heroes are beatable but then the author will lamely bring him back just so he can institute some teenage highschool relationship drama for the protagonist of the series that nobody gives a shit about.

*coughWulfgarshouldhavestayeddeadcough*

Anyways...

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Funny story. About 3.5 years ago the press release goes out, Green Monster games has been created. The next day I hop on some forums checking out public reaction to RA and Todd signing on to be a part of 38, thinking "damn people are going to be so excited!!!"

First two posts I see online
"RA Salvatore, that"s the M$#@@ F$##@@# that killed Chewbacca, I hope they epically fail!"

and

"Oh nice, this is going to be like watching the flight of the Hindenberg, in real time"

RA won"t hesitate to kill things if the story fits. For all you Drizzt haters, he wouldn"t be the epic hero if he wasn"t as bad ass as RA makes him, it"s FANTASY you dorks.

Some of the R.A.S. hate comes from how he treats his characters.

Some fantasy readers like having the Hero(s) survive and overcome everything. Others love the George R. R. Martin approach where no one"s safe, and everyone can just randomly die.

Me, I"m in the first group, I had to give up on GRRM books (which is something I *RARELY* ever do.) If everyone"s expendable, then why the fuck should I care about *any* of these characters, ergo why should I read this?

Ninen said:

Some of the R.A.S. hate comes from how he treats his characters.

Some fantasy readers like having the Hero(s) survive and overcome everything. Others love the George R. R. Martin approach where no one"s safe, and everyone can just randomly die.

Me, I"m in the first group, I had to give up on GRRM books (which is something I *RARELY* ever do.) If everyone"s expendable, then why the fuck should I care about *any* of these characters, ergo why should I read this?

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Wow, don"t do it, don"t give up on RR. Martin! I was totally in the "Hero should conquer everything" team, but after the initial shock of Eddard Stark dying on me, I started loving the characters more and more. And lets face it, Honor only goes so far untill it gets creepy, Eddard had it coming.

Now the series I have trouble with myself is the Erikson series. since I do not (start to) care about the characters in those book in the first place, so I do not care about them dying or living at all. Which is *really* a dealbreaker.

Ninen said:

If everyone"s expendable, then why the fuck should I care about *any* of these characters, ergo why should I read this?

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I guess that crushes the hell out of Shakespeare for ya.

After raiding tonight I have to positively add this humble request, 38S: please don"t make spell graphics obnoxious in groups/raids. When having two warlocks makes a boss become a pillar of flame in which you can not distinguish anything from anyone, it becomes a hindrance and not "pretty." Scaling spell graphics based on group size would be hot.

I feel like Michael Bay somehow got creative control of WoWs gfx team at some point over the past few years.

Ngruk said:

Funny story.

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Yeah but those are star wars nerds and they"ll bitch about anything they can get their hands on.

We"re fantasy nerds, we"ll find something actually worth bitching about and -then- bitch incessantly.

Problem with a lot of FR books is too many heroes have reached basically god status and become uninteresting. You can only read "And Drizzt whirled his scimitars faster then a metaphor!" so many times.

Though I suppose it could be worse. Curt could have hired Mel "Deus ex machina" Odom and then we"d be treated to every quest being a glorified plug for his books.

Ngruk said:

Funny story. About 3.5 years ago the press release goes out, Green Monster games has been created. The next day I hop on some forums checking out public reaction to RA and Todd signing on to be a part of 38, thinking "damn people are going to be so excited!!!"

First two posts I see online
"RA Salvatore, that"s the M$#@@ F$##@@# that killed Chewbacca, I hope they epically fail!"

and

"Oh nice, this is going to be like watching the flight of the Hindenberg, in real time"

RA won"t hesitate to kill things if the story fits. For all you Drizzt haters, he wouldn"t be the epic hero if he wasn"t as bad ass as RA makes him, it"s FANTASY you dorks.

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I loved RA"s evil characters, Jarlaxle is my favourite one bar none, some are a bit overdone imo, but that"s drow society I guess. Drizzt was great to start with, then went down too much the path of self-pity and introspection, that I didn"t like much. This been said I read many if not all of his books and will likely keep doing so.

Some of his stories were really cool, some others a bit more clich?, but in the end I like the Forgotten Realms setting enough to let the bad parts slide away.

Martin on the other hand shocked me several times to the point it became a bit boring, but was enjoyable nonetheless. I"ve stated to my friends that if he kills Tyrion Lannister, I"m done with his books
Most funny fantasy character ever.

Martin on the other hand shocked me several times to the point it became a bit boring, but was enjoyable nonetheless. I"ve stated to my friends that if he kills Tyrion Lannister, I"m done with his books
Most funny fantasy character ever.

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Don"t worry, I"m sure he knows he"s struck literary gold with Tyrion, there"s no way he"s dying.

Miele said:

Martin on the other hand shocked me several times to the point it became a bit boring, but was enjoyable nonetheless. I"ve stated to my friends that if he kills Tyrion Lannister, I"m done with his books

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That"s one of the most endearing things with Martin. He will kill anyone if it advances a good story. No one is safe.

Most people know Martin from his recent series, but I followed him since the days of the Wild Card series (which is what Heroes should have been, instead of the slowly unfolding train wreck it became), where no character, good or villain, was safe as long as he was directing the series.

Miele said:

I"ve stated to my friends that if he kills Tyrion Lannister, I"m done with his books
Most funny fantasy character ever.

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Haha, same here. In my mind he has become the "Main Guy" of the books, so I am probably setting myself up for the fall. He will probably die a messy unglorious death in the next book. I still have some hopes for Arya Stark to come out on top as the Heroine though.