Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

findar said:

i"ve been holding back but the first big mmo on consoles will be something very similar to dragonica/maple story. simple to design, simple to play, and entirely funded by microtransactions(maybe a small buy in, $5? $10?). both psn and xbox live have a micro transaction system already in place, with xbox taking the edge on this one. in a case like this your priority is on the art / database team and not so much on amazing coders.

hell i"m surprised a small studio hasn"t been smart enough to do this honestly. hire 2-3 art buddies out of college, 1-2 guys on engine, 1-2 guys on database. the game starts simple, 1-20 levels with a loot system similar to dragonica"s (white>green>blue>orange>purple with random stats, can craft things and enchant, etc). have 2-3 dungeons where you can redo them at different difficulty levels, but don"t change the overall length. an easy dungeon shouldn"t be 1/4th as long as the hard dugeon, but the npcs should be easier. make a final dungeon that"s all puzzles / jumping, put 1 "end" boss at this. while people are chewing on this, make the next 20 levels. etc etc.

the model basically funds itself and gives players an "end" in case the team falls apart for whatever reason. use micro transactions for mostly fluff stuff, but other things like XP res, insurance, specialty teleport items, etc.

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mythos was a perfect game for this model, made by hellgate folks and was more fun than hellgate. Had a good fantasy-lite theme and perfect opportunities for micro transactions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythos_(computer_game)

Unfortunately, when flagship dissolved the IP bounced around and the last I heard was in the hands of the company that does that audition dancing game.


That said, I will never touch microtransactions with a 10-foot dick, unless they offer a package that explains what I get for $10-20 a month. They could call the the "subscription package."

That isn"t to say that that"s where MMOs are headed, but I don"t see why console MMOs necessarily mean microtransactions instead of a monthly subscription. Something else that WoW has proven is that it isn"t impossible or not profitable to deploy craptons of content to update the game regularly which was always the holdup with other console MMOs.

Is it fair to say that people love stories but that some don"t like to read, and some do? They don"t love stories any more or less than the other, but part of that group will put effort into finding a good story (aka people that read) and others will love a story only if they see it or are told?

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Well, my favorite game of all time was wasteland and that literally pointed you to paragraphs in the booklet to read, sometimes. Part of the immersion was that it was also one of the first games I remember that had a persistent world, where there weren"t respawns or resets of the environment. This lead you to think and act carefully because what you did actually had a consequence.

I don"t think MMOs can have that same spirit of consequence because you"re using one framework for tons and tons of people. And that"s not even touching on all of the people who don"t want to log into a game to be careful or else they might not have fun.

I watched the FFOnline cutscenes. Could not tell you what they were. Aion might have a plot. Sort of ignored it mixed in with the gather / kill 10 quests.

As far as stories and plots, it"s hard enough to make the interface - actually having an engrossing plot and memorable characters is really theme driven. I can tell you the story arch and main characters to Monkey Island, and most of the sierra and lucasfilm games, but some of these modern adventures? Faceless at best.

While I might not know the finer points of the plot in wow, i can relate how the story progresses from solo to group to dungeons to raids, and how raids became more and more complex as more and more people were taught how to handle raids until the raids got to the point that every person had their own unique role.

As far as story? That shoots itself in the foot when you are constantly reset as "peon who needs to prove themselves" as you progress through the game? Level 80? Why, you need to be level 90 for this! Now go collect some legs from the region"s lowliest creatures!"


MMOs have more in common with zelda than they do with an rpg. There"s a general goal, and by wandering around you"ll find what"s linearly easiest, with a few brick walls that you will not pass unless you meet certain requirements.

Ngruk said:

Is it fair to say that people love stories but that some don"t like to read, and some do? They don"t love stories any more or less than the other, but part of that group will put effort into finding a good story (aka people that read) and others will love a story only if they see it or are told?

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I assume you are talking about games here and not how some people simply do not like to read books at all? In that case I think you may be right. I can read through Jordans Wheel of Time series for a 3rd time no problem but when I am behind that computerscreen I almost get annoyed with every slab of text that is thrown at me. It does indeed almost feel like an interruption of sorts: I guess this is the interactivity hurdle. At the same time, I feel that the games that *did* manage to leave some impression of their story(stories) with me, were more fun.

In EQ, the stories(not the overarching story)that stuck with me were the ones that hit the right spot: for instance the Quest where this little girl got lost in the Qeynos Aquaducts and her father was looking for her. She was eaten by a baby Gelatinous Cube and you can loot her little dress of it and turn it in with her father for some gutwrenching dialogue. Not what I would call "literature" but hitting home nevertheless.

In this case it is not so much the presentation as it is the content that hits home with a certain small demographic(daddies?). I am wondering how presentation could enhance this? I am not sure if Voiceovers or a cinematic sequence would have done anything more: it was not necessary in this case. To be honest, VO"s and Cinematics feel even more "interuptive" then text to me. So I would have to conclude that the content of the story in the end is the thing that gets me over the interactivity hurdle: it really has to hit home.

Presentation is what draws your attention to the content so still extremely important. Tools for presentation(what I can come up with anyway)

Voice overs;
Cinematic Sequences;
NPC"s waving/nodding/making eye contact at you;
Huge exclamation marks over the NPCs head.......
Gameworld has altered due to your actions(phasing in WoW, Lotros intro quests).

Must be lots more.

Concerning those introquests in Lotro: if only I would have actually cared about that town Archet, then maybe its burning down would have left more of an impression. You first have to care about something before a dynamic change hits home. I think the wrecking of Freeport (read total revamp of the zone) stirred more emotions then any of Lotros intro scenes.

One of the cool things I never put much stock in, or paid attention to is the UI as it pertains to story telling and questing.

Watching Irena work her magic after leaving as the lead on WoW has been pretty damn entertaining and enlightening.

There is an immense amount of science behind basic UI (which I knew about) but the answers to many questions you come up with are far simpler than I thought (which I didn"t know about).

Presenting content within the UI is an immense challenge, made even more so by wanting the UI to be a piece of the content in and of itself.

Tropics said:

Basically they need to create the dynamic content from the start, create a town from the start that people will know and love and hang out in with the trigger already set into motion to have a giant raiding party of NPC"s and PC"s of the opposing faction suddenly rise up, march to the town, and litterly raze it and kill everyone.

Basically imagine the day that the Dark Elves followed Bertoxolous and Cazic Thule to war when the two gods released Nagafon and sent him to attack Freeport and then followed in from behind and detroyed the whole city. The city thus becomes a ruined wasteland of undead, the NPC"s you once knew now undead raised by Bert as he went by the carnage.

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Exactly. Players need to care about their world/city and then dynamic changes will hit home and create grand stories. Funny that you use Freeport as an example: after all they razed it allright(the devs did).
Having said this, what you propose will be hard to swallow by the average MMO player. I myself am not sure if I would want to play in a World that is *that* dynamic. But if a game is actually built around this and people know that their world is so changeable from the start, then who knows. It could certainly solve some problems, like old starting areas/cities becoming ghost-towns when the game matures.

It would require a completely different approach though from the dev-team: you would need to have a very active and flexible Live-team to make this happen: I do not think you can plan very far ahead for this. It can"t be too rigid, else it will not make sense. I remember AO having planned a 4-year story arc ahead, but that never came true. Possibly because of the lousy sub-numbers though. It is also a gamble: creating a game with a turbulent dynamic future of that scope, with the assumption that sub-numbers will be able to support it, will need some seriously brave investors.

Thank you Tuco.

Ngruk said:

Is it fair to say that people love stories...

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To an extent. If you really gave a shit about a games story though you tended to get it from other sources though then the actual game. In most games we"re quite content with the story being "Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president?" In fact, the only difference between an action game and an RPG these days is the length of the dialogue inbetween killing spree"s.

Let"s put it this way. A good story can make a good game better but a good story will never make a bad game good. Most of the time there simply is no need. All I really need is what direction I should point my sword at. Motivation is secondary to killing. Hell, usually the type of creature I"m killing is all the motivation I need (There"s a story to Wolfenstein? Who"d have thought. Killing Nazi"s is it"s own reward!)

I like a good story but it"s risky. It can flat out be bad (99% of Jrpg"s for example...oh what the hell, 100% of them.) or ridiculously wordy and you find yourself skipping a bunch of it because you get tired of trying to care (most bioware games post Baldur"s Gate era). And somtimes, I just flat out don"t give a shit and would rather read a spoiler on gamefaq"s then sit through some VA"d dialogue because I want to get back to the killing (If it wasn"t for the gratuitious panty/titty shots in MGS4 I"m pretty sure I would have no clue what foxdie is).

I"m not saying I don"t like a good story. I"m just saying be careful. Having a good story to tell is one thing, finding a good way to tell it is another. The hard part is finding a way to get me to give a shit when there"s killing I could be doing instead of listening to some aged wizard explain in a boring monologue about the history of the town he built his tower in and why he needs you to go collect 10 bear asses for him.

Tuco said:

Did you seriously just type that bullshit out? Here"s a hint, while you were accruing a typical (That"s right, a typical) repertoire of experience playing games we all loved, Schilling was doing something with his life. So don"t come in here and insult the guy just because you spent 5 months looking for shit in Ultima Underworld (btw I liked beating the shit out of all the civilizations and turning the whole place into a ghost town. I stocked all the gems in the game into my room on the floor with all the humanoid fighters).

You need a few days off to get your priorities straight my friend.

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We should rename this thread "Debate game design with Flight and Zehn" and confuse him so he doesn"t know where to look after he comes back. That"s pretty much what this thread has been for the last 100 pages minus the occasional derail when Curt posts or somebody who has had too much sugar whines about us waxing philisophical.

Ngruk said:

Is it fair to say that people love stories but that some don"t like to read, and some do? They don"t love stories any more or less than the other, but part of that group will put effort into finding a good story (aka people that read) and others will love a story only if they see it or are told?

Therein lies a problem for us gamers. I think, I THINK, I am in the minority because I love to read, anything, that"s a great book/story. I am a quest guy, I am a content guy, but I am also a click the text dialogue box to get through the "stuff" and figure out what I need to do.
.

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First, I think everyone loves a good story.

I think reading is somewhat of a generational gap. I"m 40 and a voracious reader. Even in a busy month I"ll down 2 or 3 novels while doing 60 hour work weeks. I"ll wipe out 10 or more during a slow month. I grew up with few good TV channels, and very little in the realm of digitial entertainment. Music in the 80s was the best. TV in the 80s sucked.

I"ve noticed younger people by and large don"t read a lot. They"re more into consoles, movies, and have a much lower attention span on average.

The problem with RPGs and many MMOs is they cater to the A.D.D. dynamic of todays kids. Story is sparse, easy to ignore, and not really involved with ones character. Kill 10 bats. Go to point X. The one paragraph story gives us nothing worthwhile or really that entertaining.

There are older games that transcend this and pull you into the story. Planescape: Torment and Baldurs Gate are two, which gives me great hope for the SW:TOR MMO.

The Lich King has some very good storylines and cut scenes within it, but the problem there lies in repeat value. There is little. Once we"ve been through the various fun level based stories all that is left is raiding which is fun, but a horse of a different color.

The problem with MMOs isn"t backstory or lore. It"s interactivity, repeatability, and the holy grail, a dynamic changing world.

As you"ve put before, games are about the player being the star. The problem is most MMOs and games are focused with a choose your own adventure game mode where one has choices of A, B, or C. That still is limited in scope and simple in design. The real paradigm shift will be when online worlds open up and the story is done by the players in such a manner that it isn"t just designed for closed limited modes of instances with 10 to 25 people running content over and over, but allowing for actual change, world growth, and player driven events.

Unfortunately the technology isn"t near being ready, so we"ll continue to not get good sandbox worlds, but single player games with small static multiplayer design built on top masquerading as "Massive" and "Roleplaying" games when in fact they are neither.

Zehn - Vhex said:

Let"s put it this way. A good story can make a good game better but a good story will never make a bad game good.

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That pretty much sums it up. I would say a great story can make a good/great game something not done before.

But ya, no amount of story will ever make a bad game good.

I wrote a long post but didn"t like it. Suffice to say, people will care about the lore as much as they care about their character. Give me a reason my character will be like me and not a cookie cutter of everyone else and I will care about the world.

Tuco said:

Did you seriously just type that bullshit out? Here"s a hint, while you were accruing a typical (That"s right, a typical) repertoire of experience playing games we all loved, Schilling was doing something with his life. So don"t come in here and insult the guy just because you spent 5 months looking for shit in Ultima Underworld (btw I liked beating the shit out of all the civilizations and turning the whole place into a ghost town. I stocked all the gems in the game into my room on the floor with all the humanoid fighters).

You need a few days off to get your priorities straight my friend.

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
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Gecko said:

Unfortunately the technology isn"t near being ready, so we"ll continue to not get good sandbox worlds, but single player games with small static multiplayer design built on top masquerading as "Massive" and "Roleplaying" games when in fact they are neither.

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The problem with players telling the story in a dynamic world online is...well...the players. You give people the freedom to do anything they want and you get Second Life. You give people the freedom to do lots of things but within certain rules and limitations and you get Eve where everybody are just massive dicks to eachother.

You"re simply never going to make it work unless your game also eliminates human nature.

And don"t pull the "kids these days" card either. I stopped reading novels around the same time I started being able to guess the plot by the end of the 3rd chapter. You know it"s bad when you start noticing trends. Like most sci-fi novels written by women will have a gay protagonist.

Gecko said:

I think reading is somewhat of a generational gap. I"m 40 and a voracious reader. *snip*

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Well, I"d beware of generalizations though. I"ll be 40 later this year and I read a similar amount recreationally.

I don"t read much when I am playing MMOs though and never really have. Sure, in EQ I"d scan for keywords and so on but in WoW? Hell man, I still couldn"t tell you why I did any of the things I did from a lore standpoint and I played from F&F onwards. I still quite enjoyed playing the game though.

In older RPG-styled stuff I did actually read the dialogue and textdumps quite cheerfully but for MMOs it just seems uninteresting for whatever reason. Perhaps that is a quality thing but more likely it is just that I tend to play MMOs as social enterprise where defeating obstacles is the goal. Since the lore is not needed for that, I just tend to filter it out. Quality is an issue of course too however, as most of the lore wouldn"t qualify for a B-grade fantasy novel.

Zehn - Vhex said:

We should rename this thread "Debate game design with Flight and Zehn" and confuse him so he doesn"t know where to look after he comes back. That"s pretty much what this thread has been for the last 100 pages minus the occasional derail when Curt posts or somebody who has had too much sugar whines about us waxing philisophical.

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I can"t imagine how hard it must be for you to walk around with your head the size it is. Do you constantly find yourself yelling at people to get out of the way? "Wide load coming through!"

OneofOne said:

I can"t imagine how hard it must be for you to walk around with your head the size it is. Do you constantly find yourself yelling at people to get out of the way? "Wide load coming through!"

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Actually I meant it more as a joke based on how much some of us post to this thread about general game design rather then about copernicus, but yes, I do yell that. Mostly because of the size of my penis. Which is large.

I felt I needed to point out that it was large because you seem to fail to grasp things, like my penis, because it is so large your hands wouldn"t fit around it. Because it"s big. Which is why I would yell "Wide load coming through!"

4% Zehn? It is like you aren"t even trying anymore.

Ngruk said:

How can we do that? How can we make readers and non-readers alike, fantasy fans, "know" our story, lore and Iconics? That"s just one of the hurdles we have that some others do not.

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In game cut scenes. Make them like FFXI but have voice overs instead of just boxes of text that scroll by. I never read or actually did many quests in FFXI but when I randomly did one or completed one to get a sub job etc those cut scenes were really cool and made me really enjoy the game.

p.s. the main guy of Jeuno was badass

Ut, you really have some skewed perspective there. Do you really think people need you to tell them that Ngruk is posting here for PR? It is obvious he is here because he wants to communicate with a plausible audience for his game - I doubt he is making an MMO just for the money, since apparently he is extremely rich from his career in sports (I know absolutely nothing about american sports).

It is always good to take everything developers post with a grain of salt, but uhhh - who here exactly doesn"t do that already? There is absolutely nothing even the best PR campaign can do against the effect of word of mouth once beta comes out.

Quince said:

In game cut scenes. Make them like FFXI but have voice overs instead of just boxes of text that scroll by. I never read or actually did many quests in FFXI but when I randomly did one or completed one to get a sub job etc those cut scenes were really cool and made me really enjoy the game.

p.s. the main guy of Jeuno was badass

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I think there are only two ways to really get story involved "for the masses" in a game. Even though I myself am a lore whore and pursued the story and tried to find out why things happened in these games, I have to admit I always found these things outside of the game. Very rarely did I find the lore I was wanting to know in the game, which is a problem.

Why didn"t I find it ingame? It"s a game, I always had other things needing done usually. It"s hard to read the books in Scarlet Monastery that detail some of the storyline if the other 4 people in the group want to, y"know, finish the instance.

"A book! Hold on the pull guys, I need to read this shit."

As I said, I think there are only two ways to have a storyline in the game. The first is what Quince said, FFXI style or, maybe preferably, Wrathgate style cut scenes. It"s a fine balance as it changes it from a game to a viewing experience (so they can"t, individually, be overly long). From friends and guildmates I have been with (casuals over the last year or two, sadly ), they ate that shit up. The Wrathgate alone in Dragonblight was omfg amazing to a lot of these people.

They need to be IN-game, though. Blizzard has done similar cutscenes before....

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or....

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....but they weren"t ingame. I never watched these things when they were on their website, I always found them on Youtube later. Even the Black Temple one was well-received with everyone I showed it too, though, despite the lack of violence compared to Wrathgate.

When people watch them, though, they"re usually drawn in....again, they have to be done well, though.

The only other way to do a storyline is to have it be player driven and that usually involves PvP. There"s a reason The Great War, the robberies, bank frauds, and tournaments in Eve bring a lot of spectators. They"re a storyline people care about.

In a way, it"s even BETTER then the ingame cinematic route and has caused a lot of people to try Eve and kept it growing despite being a major abortion on release....but as was said above, the story can"t make a game great, and the Evegameis niche.

The player driven stories is what keeps it alive, though.

Cut-scenes are ok if you use them sparingly. In GW people yelled at you if you made them wait as you watch the cut scene to get the story.

Unless of course you witness the cut scene by yourself.

Some people just skip over the reading, watching, listening so they can get back to the game they were playing. If you want to tell a story you have to be controlling your character. You have to play the story. All of your senses need to be used. Seeing and hearing while you"re actually controlling your character.

It"s more difficult, but ultimately, it will create that "immersion" for your players. I gave an example a few days ago in this thread before the Ut and old video game derail.