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Sanrith Descartes

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I've got some extra money from my bonus this year and I was considering using it to day trade. Basically I'd like to make some extra money and kill some time at work. My job is boring so if I can find something to fill the time that would be nice. I have no issue spending time learning first before going live. The only experience I have with stock, is picking a few long term dividend stocks. I dabbled in forex about 17 years ago but didn't have the time, patience, or capital to make it work. I've considered picking it back up but figured I'd see what is out there.

I already have money invested in some long term dividend stocks and a managed account with Merrill Lynch. My retirement account is paid for by my employer and I have no debts other than my house, so this money is literally sitting idle.

Having said all that, any suggestions/ideas/starting points for where to put this money to work without reading through this whole thread? I have about $40k just sitting around.
My advice is probably not what you want to hear. "I am considering using it to day trade" and "without reading this whole thread" really dont go together. Read, read and read some more. Not this thread but everywhere. Day trading in my experience doesnt make much on the long view. Fees and commissions eat up so much that the net profits tend to underperform a good long term investment.

Today it's all about algos and tweet driven volatility. Fundamentals stopped being important a while back. I'm not saying you cant make cash with your 40k, but I am saying unless you have real skills in this game (and you dont mention if you do) put it someplace "safe" based on this stage of the cycle and be planning for the downturn that is in the near future.

Your mileage may vary.
 
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Blazin

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I've got some extra money from my bonus this year and I was considering using it to day trade. Basically I'd like to make some extra money and kill some time at work. My job is boring so if I can find something to fill the time that would be nice. I have no issue spending time learning first before going live. The only experience I have with stock, is picking a few long term dividend stocks. I dabbled in forex about 17 years ago but didn't have the time, patience, or capital to make it work. I've considered picking it back up but figured I'd see what is out there.

I already have money invested in some long term dividend stocks and a managed account with Merrill Lynch. My retirement account is paid for by my employer and I have no debts other than my house, so this money is literally sitting idle.

Having said all that, any suggestions/ideas/starting points for where to put this money to work without reading through this whole thread? I have about $40k just sitting around.

I think that is quite risky road, I'm an active trader for many years and I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of people who attempt this will loose money. Trading can only really be learned through experience and that experience can be quite costly. Trading with a paper money account can be an okay way to start but the problem is it doesnt teach you the hardest part, which is not picking stocks, it's controlling your emotions. I assume you are human, most human instincts are bad for trading. I would start with reading . better known as the traders bible. It will help to start understanding the pitfalls of our emotions and trading.

I converse regularly with other professional traders and most of us agree that $100,000 is the starting point but we usually say that to someone who wants to do more than "dabble". I wouldn't give up trading for just about anything, it's a life passion so I don't want to overly dissuade you, but I have never met a real trader who wouldn't tell you , "you're going to lose that $40g" When I first really started day trading around 2002-3ish with around $30g and I still remember an options trade going sideways on me and losing $4k in an afternoon which at the time was quite devastating. This trade can be learned and honed through study, dedication, and time but I really dont think it's a good idea to play with unless you want to see if it tickles your fancy enough to change your life, otherwise you're going to loose money just like everyone else who tries the same.

But if you go for it, I'm here and will help in anyway I can, as I said I love this stuff. You'll have to try to determine how/what you're going to trade, etf's, individual equities, options, etc. Do you have an experience understanding technicals?
 
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fred sanford

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My advice is probably not what you want to hear. "I am considering using it to day trade" and "without reading this whole thread" really dont go together.

I get what you're saying and thanks for the input. What I meant with that statement was that I didn't want someone to come in here and say "here we go again, read the thread". I was asking for input on what I should look into specifically, like stocks, futures, forex, etc. Believe me, I have no problem reading the thread or studying elsewhere. In fact, I plan to read my ass off before committing that much money. Picture my job like Peter in Office Space. I probably only do about 15 minutes of real work in a given day so studying something interesting would be great, even better if I can get it to make some extra money for me.

But if you go for it, I'm here and will help in anyway I can, as I said I love this stuff. You'll have to try to determine how/what you're going to trade, etf's, individual equities, options, etc. Do you have an experience understanding technicals?

Thanks, I'll take a look at that book. In the past when I dabbled I definitely had too much emotion and had hardly any money that I could afford to lose which is why I gave up. Trading with $200 when you first move from home didn't go very far. That's a lot of Taco Bell to miss out on. I feel that my situation is different these days and I'd be less emotionally attached. But as you pointed out, we'll find out when I actually do it. Real money vs fake money makes a huge difference. That is why I painted that financial picture, in that I really don't have a need for this money so I think I could trade it without emotion.

That determination is what I was looking for advice on. Is there an obvious preference to etf's, individual equities, or options? I do have some experience with technicals. Would I call myself a master, no. But, I have a good foundation and understand what indicators are telling me.
 

Blazin

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One recommendation I make is to trade SPY or really solid companies that you don't mind holding as long term investments, and then never selling for a short term loss. This way the risk is that you get caught holding the market which is what most here would tell you to do with it in the first place. Now if that is the only possible downside you have significantly reigned in the risk. Trading crap names or penny stocks (Sub $10/share) you take away from yourself the option of patience and holding when caught offsides.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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One recommendation I make is to trade SPY or really solid companies that you don't mind holding as long term investments, and then never selling for a short term loss. This way the risk is that you get caught holding the market which is what most here would tell you to do with it in the first place. Now if that is the only possible downside you have significantly reigned in the risk. Trading crap names or penny stocks (Sub $10/share) you take away from yourself the option of patience and holding when caught offsides.
This is sort of my strategy in the current environment. I trade short term economic shocks but only on high quality companies so if my trade goes wrong I am ok holding the company in a longer scenario. I also really look for high dividends in those companies so if I am stuck I am making money while I wait. For example I went long on XOM last month and it didnt break out the way i anticipated. So I am fine holding it at a +5% dividend yield.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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If you are on Twitter there is a wealth of info available to follow. Also consider narrowing your trading to a specific sector you have knowledge of. It narrows the field and helps with research since you are comfortable with the sector.
 
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Blazin

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This is sort of my strategy in the current environment. I trade short term economic shocks but only on high quality companies so if my trade goes wrong I am ok holding the company in a longer scenario. I also really look for high dividends in those companies so if I am stuck I am making money while I wait. For example I went long on XOM last month and it didnt break out the way i anticipated. So I am fine holding it at a +5% dividend yield.

If current market environment is making you cautious you could also sell cash secured puts deep out of the money and easily double the return on your money compared to sitting in cash. Worst case scenario you end up with the market at a much lower price.


***edit nobody should be trading options without experience and they sure as shit shouldn't be selling them without a good understanding, I know most know that but I just want to reiterate, figured Sanrith seems astute enough it could be appropriate to his level of experience.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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If current market environment is making you cautious you could also sell cash secured puts deep out of the money and easily double the return on your money compared to sitting in cash. Worst case scenario you end up with the market at a much lower price.


***edit nobody should be trading options without experience and they sure as shit shouldn't be selling them without a good understanding, I know most know that but I just want to reiterate, figured Sanrith seems astute enough it could be appropriate to his level of experience.
Years ago I dabbled in options before I should have and... wait for it... got my ass handed to me. I have learned much since then but I admit I am still a bit gun shy with them. What I have taught myself is to stick to sectors I am very comfortable with and make conservative moves based on short term macro shocks. This strategy is pretty conservative and doesnt maximize alpha but I tend to have a good ratio of wins to losses in terms of my trades. Trading isnt my living so for me it's about achieving my goal of making more than I would if all my cash was invested in the SPY instead taking a 9.5% average annual return.
 

Blazin

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For anyone interested in learning an option strategy, I'll explain a little selling a put. Feel free to ignore this post if not interested :)

Let's say an investor is watching the S&P 500 who has $200,000 and is considering his options from now till year end. For whatever reason (geopolitical turmoil, valuations, possible recession, horizon for needing cash etc.) they decide the market is overvalued at today's price of $291/share. He does however believe he would be interested in buying into the market if it were to drop to $270/share (about 10% off ATH ie a correction). So this investor leaves his cash in a money market account earning about 1.8% and waits to see if the market drops to his desired level. So we have two possible outcomes, the market fails to reach his $270 level and he will make about $900 in interest during the three months or the market will drop to $270 or lower and he will invest.

Now what he could have done. is sell a PUT option. This is a contract to purchase shares at the strike on or before expiration. If he looks out to year end we have option contracts that expire on Dec 20, 2019 (There are weekly, monthly, and quarterly options and on an ETF like SPY there is a plethora of available choices for all time horizons.) Today's closing price on a $270 put contract on SPY expiring Dec 20th is $3.54. A single option contract is for 100 shares of the underlying security. So for each contract he would sell there would be $27,000 ($270x100) of obligation. This means that our investor has enough cash to cover 7 put contracts ($27k x 7 = $189k cash to secure) So the investor sells 7 contracts at $3.54 and immediately collects $2,478 that will be credited to his account. The three months pass and the investor will still collect the money market interest plus his money from selling the puts ($2,478+$900=$3,378). If the price of SPY is greater than $270 on Dec 20th the puts will expire worthless. The cash is freed up again and the investor keeps his $3,378 OR the market does indeed decline and on Exp day SPY is trading less than $270/share. In this case the investor will find himself the new owner of 700 shares of SPY @ $270 (at a cost basis of $266.46/share)better than the price he previously decided he would be interested in owning it at.

While most would agree that making $3,378 is nicer than $900 for an individual who was wanting and willing to buy SPY at the strike ($270) in Oct three months prior there are a few pitfalls to this.

1. SPY may drop below $270/share prior to Dec 20th and then recover. Now our investor could not purchase shares with his $189k because that cash was securing his put obligation. If the investor at that moment chooses to close the position (buy to close) he will pay a rather tidy sum because the value of the put will have risen potentially significantly from the time it was sold. This risk could be mitigated with yet further options strategies at that point but I don't want to over complicate it but to show that there is risk related to TIMING. This timing risk can be more straightforwardly be mitigated by selling options that are closer to expiration. In this scenario sell 7 of the 10/18 exp , then the 11/15 and then the 12/20 as each date comes up. This makes it more likely that the investor will get his shares if the market does fall to below the strike.

2. Another risk could be that SPY falls well below $270 so that at assignment you enter the position already significantly down. For example SPY falls to $250 on 12/20 you are now ($14,000) in the red at the time you receive the shares. To me this risk is not really a risk of the option contract but more how we perceive it. Remember we started this idea with the investor saying "I would pay $270 for SPY" well whenever a buyer established the price he will pay and acts, there is no way of knowing if a lower price could be had a week later that is an inherent risk of investing. If you lie to yourself at the start when picking the strike you will learn to regret it real quick then when your steadfastness it put to the test. It's easy when the market is at highs to say you would buy it cheaper. But cheaper doesn't come without the fear that drives the price there in the first place. Some investors then when faced with that fear find themselves flat footed when months earlier they were quite sure they would act.

It is this behavior that makes timing markets too precarious for people because it's easy to sell the market it's much harder to get back in. This is a reason I actually like this put option strategy because it locks you in when you have balls of steel and makes the decision upfront when you are of clearer mind and not in the moment of panic.

3. If the investor needs the cash during this 3mo. period there is a reasonable chance he can't exit the position without loss. Now this is again not a particular risk outside of the standard consideration of our investment horizons and need for money in the future, but I list it because it is a con compared to the money just sitting in a MM waiting for SPY to drop because each day the investor could change his mind and apply the cash elsewhere.

These risks should not be surprising as nobody is going to hand you $2,478 for nothing, but the risk compared to an investor who wants to be invested and is not comfortable with current levels, it is a much more efficient management of cash. There are more details and things to elaborate on but in the interest of brevity and not wanting to make this too confusing I try not to get too thick into it beyond what is needed to convey the idea.

If that is interesting to at least one person then I'm happy and could maybe even be helpful to someone in the future.
 
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maskedmelon

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Anyone here into forex? Thought about getting into that, but wasn't sure where to start.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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For anyone interested in learning an option strategy, I'll explain a little selling a put. Feel free to ignore this post if not interested :)

Let's say an investor is watching the S&P 500 who has $200,000 and is considering his options from now till year end. For whatever reason (geopolitical turmoil, valuations, possible recession, horizon for needing cash etc.) they decide the market is overvalued at today's price of $291/share. He does however believe he would be interested in buying into the market if it were to drop to $270/share (about 10% off ATH ie a correction). So this investor leaves his cash in a money market account earning about 1.8% and waits to see if the market drops to his desired level. So we have two possible outcomes, the market fails to reach his $270 level and he will make about $900 in interest during the three months or the market will drop to $270 or lower and he will invest.

Now what he could have done. is sell a PUT option. This is a contract to purchase shares at the strike on or before expiration. If he looks out to year end we have option contracts that expire on Dec 20, 2019 (There are weekly, monthly, and quarterly options and on an ETF like SPY there is a plethora of available choices for all time horizons.) Today's closing price on a $270 put contract on SPY expiring Dec 20th is $3.54. A single option contract is for 100 shares of the underlying security. So for each contract he would sell there would be $27,000 ($270x100) of obligation. This means that our investor has enough cash to cover 7 put contracts ($27k x 7 = $189k cash to secure) So the investor sells 7 contracts at $3.54 and immediately collects $2,478 that will be credited to his account. The three months pass and the investor will still collect the money market interest plus his money from selling the puts ($2,478+$900=$3,378). If the price of SPY is greater than $270 on Dec 20th the puts will expire worthless. The cash is freed up again and the investor keeps his $3,378 OR the market does indeed decline and on Exp day SPY is trading less than $270/share. In this case the investor will find himself the new owner of 700 shares of SPY @ $270 (at a cost basis of $266.46/share)better than the price he previously decided he would be interested in owning it at.

While most would agree that making $3,378 is nicer than $900 for an individual who was wanting and willing to buy SPY at the strike ($270) in Oct three months prior there are a few pitfalls to this.

1. SPY may drop below $270/share prior to Dec 20th and then recover. Now our investor could not purchase shares with his $189k because that cash was securing his put obligation. If the investor at that moment chooses to close the position (buy to close) he will pay a rather tidy sum because the value of the put will have risen potentially significantly from the time it was sold. This risk could be mitigated with yet further options strategies at that point but I don't want to over complicate it but to show that there is risk related to TIMING. This timing risk can be more straightforwardly be mitigated by selling options that are closer to expiration. In this scenario sell 7 of the 10/18 exp , then the 11/15 and then the 12/20 as each date comes up. This makes it more likely that the investor will get his shares if the market does fall to below the strike.

2. Another risk could be that SPY falls well below $270 so that at assignment you enter the position already significantly down. For example SPY falls to $250 on 12/20 you are now ($14,000) in the red at the time you receive the shares. To me this risk is not really a risk of the option contract but more how we perceive it. Remember we started this idea with the investor saying "I would pay $270 for SPY" well whenever a buyer established the price he will pay and acts, there is no way of knowing if a lower price could be had a week later that is an inherent risk of investing. If you lie to yourself at the start when picking the strike you will learn to regret it real quick then when your steadfastness it put to the test. It's easy when the market is at highs to say you would buy it cheaper. But cheaper doesn't come without the fear that drives the price there in the first place. Some investors then when faced with that fear find themselves flat footed when months earlier they were quite sure they would act.

It is this behavior that makes timing markets too precarious for people because it's easy to sell the market it's much harder to get back in. This is a reason I actually like this put option strategy because it locks you in when you have balls of steel and makes the decision upfront when you are of clearer mind and not in the moment of panic.

3. If the investor needs the cash during this 3mo. period there is a reasonable chance he can't exit the position without loss. Now this is again not a particular risk outside of the standard consideration of our investment horizons and need for money in the future, but I list it because it is a con compared to the money just sitting in a MM waiting for SPY to drop because each day the investor could change his mind and apply the cash elsewhere.

These risks should not be surprising as nobody is going to hand you $2,478 for nothing, but the risk compared to an investor who wants to be invested and is not comfortable with current levels, it is a much more efficient management of cash. There are more details and things to elaborate on but in the interest of brevity and not wanting to make this too confusing I try not to get too thick into it beyond what is needed to convey the idea.

If that is interesting to at least one person then I'm happy and could maybe even be helpful to someone in the future.
Nice write- up. Thanks for taking the time to do it. The one thing I will add is that we are swimming in water with really big fish. When they want the price of a stock/ETF to move in a specific direction they have the resources to move it. And they do.

The information age has made asymmetrical information much less prevalent than it used to be. Even small retail players can find info quickly and use it to make timely investment decisions.

You have to take emotions out of the equation. The sociopath is the best investor. He doesnt have emotions. Neither do algos.

Last few tidbits. Liquidity is crucial. The fed is repo-ing bonds like mad every night. Dont get caught in an illiquid instrument. Probably the SPYs biggest advantage is its liquidity.

As you educate yourself, dont forget to learn about the bond market. Many feel it is even more important than the equity markets. Even if you only trade stocks, the bond market will tell you where we are headed.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Anyone here into forex? Thought about getting into that, but wasn't sure where to start.
I took a couple classes on monetary economics in college. While there is money to be made in forex, I feel the market is really manipulated by the big players. The field is not level. For this reason I dont dabble in forex.
 

maskedmelon

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I took a couple classes on monetary economics in college. While there is money to do be made in forex, I feel the market is really manipulated by the big players. The field is not level. For this reason I dont dabble in forex.

That makes sense. I didn't expect it to be particularly lucrative. I just thought it would maybe be a nice way to earn a little extra money since I already follow a few currencies to get the best buy I can for travel lol. Thanks!
 

Sanrith Descartes

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That makes sense. I didn't expect it to be particularly lucrative. I just thought it would maybe be a nice way to earn a little extra money since I already follow a few currencies to get the best buy I can for travel lol. Thanks!
I do agree there are arbitrage opportunities in forex and it can be a place to make some decent money. One of hardest things I learned to accept was just how small of a fish I am in the investing ocean. I tend to try to sense in what direction the sharks are moving and look for scraps as I swim with them.
 

fris

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Yay, now I can get those vanguard ETFs in my Roth for free 😆
 
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Unidin

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That makes sense. I didn't expect it to be particularly lucrative. I just thought it would maybe be a nice way to earn a little extra money since I already follow a few currencies to get the best buy I can for travel lol. Thanks!

You're more likely than not going to get crushed in FOREX. FOREX is a zero sum game with a loser for every winner and the big boys understand it better than you ever will.
 
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