Investing General Discussion

sliverstorm

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So I’m debating exiting FSMAX. I know SD, blazin and other posters didn’t really suggest capturing total US market in the first place but I decided to after doing some reading some boglehead discussions.

It’s wayyy more volatile than FXAIX and I assume any other sp500 index. Historically lower returns than FXAIX. In hindsight all the boglehead posts/topics about it didn’t really give any sort of technical reason to capture the full market other than some dogma about owning the entire market weighted. On one hand I really hate to exit it because I don’t think that’s very boglehead of me - not sticking to my plan and I already gave up my international last week, IXUS.

On the other hand I think boglehead philosophy is just philosophy. It’s not hard rules and if something doesn’t make sense why stick to it?

Right now out of FXAIX + FSMAX total my FSMAX accounts for 15% of that total. I think market weighted it would need to be 18-20% to approximate total market. Approximating total stock market - Bogleheads


Looking for some thoughts on this. Even if you think approximating entire market isn’t worthwhile I’d like to hear the devils advocate opinion for doing so because as I’ve said it seems nothing more than some dogma and like Blazin Blazin has said in the past winners will bias up into sp500.

edit - I do want to say I see boglehead posts like this. However this goes back to what Blazin Blazin was kinda saying earlier, he wouldn’t buy an individual stock unless it’s something he wanted that wasn’t captured in one of his funds. I find this argument in the below quoted post dumb because sure you’ll get Tesla which would have biased into sp500 eventually but you’ll also get turds that bias down. So looking at it from that perspective you should have just bought Tesla at the time however what you didn’t know you didn’t know. I don’t think the poster can make this argument without acknowledging everything that biased downward or acknowledging that he could have alternatively bought Tesla stock on its way up.
I guess devil's advocate would be that FSMAX took a relative beating the last few years, so any 'last X years' stat is going to look pretty poor.

Here's a chart with both equivalent indexes on a 10-year slider. Move the slider at the bottom around and you can see there were plenty of similar periods where small + midcap were at near parity with or beating the big boys:

---

If you want my real opinion, historical research has consistently shown small cap (which I think is the relevant currently-underperforming part of FSMAX--mid cap and small cap each make up about half of the rest of the market(?)) to be a 1-3 year, post recession type of play.

US Stocks 12 month post recession performance (this is bottom 30% minus top 30%)
1708820575289.png


Obviously try to wait at least a year before you'd sell. Great way to lose out is to have your returns slashed by 10-15% due to missing the capital gains tax window.

Long-term, my opinion based on not much data is that small cap will face a more difficult road to investment returns than it has in the past because:

1. Leaders in the S&P 500 have realized it is way easier to just acquire potential future small cap winners early rather than letting them go public. Eat one large company? Tons of regulatory fighting. Eat 10 smaller companies in 1 year, any of which could have scaled to become a future competitor? No one bats an eye! Tech, and frankly just the digitization of consumer channels, also better lends itself to scaling acquisitions across the acquiring company's base vs. the old mantra of solely "buying customers", though you certainly still do pay for that!

2. VC funding has a bigger and bigger appetite to wait longer and eat up more market value prior to cashing out via IPO when a company is growing.

Here's a paper from University of Florida with data (charts are mine) showing median inflation-adjusted market price of companies at IPO and # of IPOs which more or less makes both points:
1708828731837.png

Fewer companies going public, and those that do entering at a higher valuation, which means that the 1980s 1000% growth journey from $100M to $1B gets absorbed by private capital instead of public funds. Over half of the 311 IPOs in 2021 cannot even double in value before being reclassified as mid cap--and that's in 2017 dollars. In that year, there were 120 tech IPOs with a MEDIAN market value of $3B in nominal 2021 dollars.

Those IPOs will still show up in FSMAX in the mid-cap, but it's an important part of the value story that used to exist and now does not, in my view. What never goes away, save for when they finally die, are all the companies that never quite break through. The median company leaves FXAIX after losing ~80% of its value. The median company leaves FSMAX after losing 100% of its value. Not sure if that's a relevant statement to calculating returns, but it is an illustrative one.

I mentioned it above, so here's the median age of VC tech IPOs. Willing to wait longer:
1708830428371.png


Lots of great data in that paper. I could be totally wrong about my interpretation of it, but that's where I'm coming from.
 
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The_Black_Log Foler

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I guess devil's advocate would be that FSMAX took a relative beating the last few years, so any 'last X years' stat is going to look pretty poor.

Here's a chart with both equivalent indexes on a 10-year slider. Move the slider at the bottom around and you can see there were plenty of similar periods where small + midcap were at near parity with or beating the big boys:

---

If you want my real opinion, historical research has consistently shown small cap (which I think is the relevant currently-underperforming part of FSMAX--mid cap and small cap each make up about half of the rest of the market(?)) to be a 1-3 year, post recession type of play.

US Stocks 12 month post recession performance (this is bottom 30% minus top 30%)
View attachment 516279

Obviously try to wait at least a year before you'd sell. Great way to lose out is to have your returns slashed by 10-15% due to missing the capital gains tax window.

Long-term, my opinion based on not much data is that small cap will face a more difficult road to investment returns than it has in the past because:

1. Leaders in the S&P 500 have realized it is way easier to just acquire potential future small cap winners early rather than letting them go public. Eat one large company? Tons of regulatory fighting. Eat 10 smaller companies in 1 year, any of which could have scaled to become a future competitor? No one bats an eye! Tech, and frankly just the digitization of consumer channels, also better lends itself to scaling acquisitions across the acquiring company's base vs. the old mantra of solely "buying customers", though you certainly still do pay for that!

2. VC funding has a bigger and bigger appetite to wait longer and eat up more market value prior to cashing out via IPO when a company is growing.

Here's a paper from University of Florida with data (charts are mine) showing median inflation-adjusted market price of companies at IPO and # of IPOs which more or less makes both points:
View attachment 516301
Fewer companies going public, and those that do entering at a higher valuation, which means that the 1980s 1000% growth journey from $100M to $1B gets absorbed by private capital instead of public funds. Over half of the 311 IPOs in 2021 cannot even double in value before being reclassified as mid cap--and that's in 2017 dollars. In that year, there were 120 tech IPOs with a MEDIAN market value of $3B in nominal 2021 dollars.

Those IPOs will still show up in FSMAX in the mid-cap, but it's an important part of the value story that used to exist and now does not, in my view. What never goes away, save for when they finally die, are all the companies that never quite break through. The median company leaves FXAIX after losing ~80% of its value. The median company leaves FSMAX after losing 100% of its value. Not sure if that's a relevant statement to calculating returns, but it is an illustrative one.

I mentioned it above, so here's the median age of VC tech IPOs. Willing to wait longer:
View attachment 516302

Lots of great data in that paper. I could be totally wrong about my interpretation of it, but that's where I'm coming from.
This is awesome. Thank you for putting this together. I was just looking at some hotshot tech companies now for a new job and so many are still private - snowflake, data bricks, air table, rippling, plaid etc. I think you’re spot on that the majority of growth is happening now in VC phase.

It sounds like you’re saying the historical growth opportunity of small caps post recession just isn’t really there anymore. I’m a novice so help me out, what if anything are you saying about mid caps? Now I wonder if it’s worth just capturing mid caps are market approximation and leaving small caps out.
 

sliverstorm

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This is awesome. Thank you for putting this together. I was just looking at some hotshot tech companies now for a new job and so many are still private - snowflake, data bricks, air table, rippling, plaid etc. I think you’re spot on that the majority of growth is happening now in VC phase.

It sounds like you’re saying the historical growth opportunity of small caps post recession just isn’t really there anymore. I’m a novice so help me out, what if anything are you saying about mid caps? Now I wonder if it’s worth just capturing mid caps are market approximation and leaving small caps out.
The data in the blue chart/article suggests that a shorter-term 1-3 year post-recession hold might still be a good play.

The question I was trying to answer beyond that was "is it still worth holding for 15+ years?" Specifically, I was trying to refute that point you saw about "missing out on TSLA" with all the VC/IPO stuff. My perspective is that these days larger companies have gotten better about capturing that value. But again, that's like 90% feelings, 10% data.

One final 'Devil's Advocate' thought in favor of small cap is that maybe the trend I posted in the red chart starts to reverse now that interest rates are back to 'normal' historical levels? On the flip side, those same higher interest rates could impact existing small cap companies more heavily, so maybe it's a wash.

Everything I posted was about small cap. My understanding is that mid cap largely follows the same macro trends as the S&P 500 and has done a bit worse over the past 20 years but a bit better during other stretches?

The reality is if we were having this convo in the late 90s I'm sure I'd do the exact same analyses I did and be like "small cap is the way to go, you get returns for holding the volatility, it's obvious outperformance on a 20 year timeframe!" So the biggest argument for staying market whole is that it's pretty hard to predict the next 20 years. At 15% of your portfolio FSPAX is a perfectly prudent diversity play.
 
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The_Black_Log Foler

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The data in the blue chart/article suggests that a shorter-term 1-3 year post-recession hold might still be a good play.

The question I was trying to answer beyond that was "is it still worth holding for 15+ years?" Specifically, I was trying to refute that point you saw about "missing out on TSLA" with all the VC/IPO stuff. My perspective is that these days larger companies have gotten better about capturing that value. But again, that's like 90% feelings, 10% data.

One final 'Devil's Advocate' thought in favor of small cap is that maybe the trend I posted in the red chart starts to reverse now that interest rates are back to 'normal' historical levels? On the flip side, those same higher interest rates could impact existing small cap companies more heavily, so maybe it's a wash.

Everything I posted was about small cap. My understanding is that mid cap largely follows the same macro trends as the S&P 500 and has done a bit worse over the past 20 years but a bit better during other stretches?

The reality is if we were having this convo in the late 90s I'm sure I'd do the exact same analyses I did and be like "small cap is the way to go, you get returns for holding the volatility, it's obvious outperformance on a 20 year timeframe!" So the biggest argument for staying market whole is that it's pretty hard to predict the next 20 years. At 15% of your portfolio FSPAX is a perfectly prudent diversity play.
Thanks.

On a side note, I was actually just going back through posts looking at Blazin Blazin ‘s IJS play he has in motion which seems to be primarily made up of consumer cyclicals. It seems small cap consumer cyclicals do best on rebound from a financial crisis. Blazin Blazin I know you mentioned this being a hold till around October iirc but is your decision here based on any sentiment that we may be coming out of a financial crisis (sorry if newb question).
 

Blazin

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Thanks.

On a side note, I was actually just going back through posts looking at Blazin Blazin ‘s IJS play he has in motion which seems to be primarily made up of consumer cyclicals. It seems small cap consumer cyclicals do best on rebound from a financial crisis. Blazin Blazin I know you mentioned this being a hold till around October iirc but is your decision here based on any sentiment that we may be coming out of a financial crisis (sorry if newb question).
No I wouldn't label it as such, I would label it a new bull market coming off a cyclical low, and in such cases we should see a broadening out of the rally. Leaders get overextended investors begin looking for plays with more value that then begin to play some catch up. This passing of the baton is how long up trends are built. Small caps are interest rate sensitive, they want to rally but they need rate declines to fuel it. The flip side of this is that they are susceptible to economic weakness and if we have a recession they will struggle. We so far have a group of bears who have declared a recession imminent for almost two years.

I'm not solidly in either camp, and what I mean by that is while expect small caps to do some catch up I don't know if we are in a position for them to break out to new ATHs and begin a new bull market like tech has at least not until after the next down period, where they simply set a higher low and possibly lead the next run as opposed to large cap. To put in perspective, IWM is still almost 20% off its former highs and has gone no where for three years, if it was performing like QQQ it would be around $250/share right now. So there are two stages to this, "the catch up" and the break out to new highs. I don't think both things will happen within a single uptrend.

1. Catch Up
2. Correction
3. Break Out
 
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The_Black_Log Foler

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No I wouldn't label it as such, I would label it a new bull market coming off a cyclical low, and in such cases we should see a broadening out of the rally. Leaders get overextended investors begin looking for plays with more value that then begin to play some catch up. This passing of the baton is how long up trends are built. Small caps are interest rate sensitive, they want to rally but they need rate declines to fuel it. The flip side of this is that they are susceptible to economic weakness and if we have a recession they will struggle. We so far have a group of bears who have declared a recession imminent for almost two years.

I'm not solidly in either camp, and what I mean by that is while expect small caps to do some catch up I don't know if we are in a position for them to break out to new ATHs and begin a new bull market like tech has at least not until after the next down period, where they simply set a higher low and possibly lead the next run as opposed to large cap. To put in perspective, IWM is still almost 20% off its former highs and has gone no where for three years, if it was performing like QQQ it would be around $250/share right now. So there are two stages to this, "the catch up" and the break out to new highs. I don't think both things will happen within a single uptrend.

1. Catch Up
2. Correction
3. Break Out
Thanks for the breakdown
 

The_Black_Log Foler

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Foler Foler , this is the all time low you've been dreaming of. Buy as much as you can ASAP.
LMAO that’s a stock split u newb :trump: . Walmart is a solid long term investment though. It’s shopping catered to poors and if there’s one thing we’ll be having exponential growth of over the coming years, it’s of poors..
 
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Loser Araysar

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LMAO that’s a stock split u newb :trump: . Walmart is a solid long term investment though. It’s shopping catered to poors and if there’s one thing we’ll be having exponential growth of over the coming years, it’s of poors..

wow, its a stock split? Thats CRAAAAAAZY
 
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Jysin

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The PANW Pelosi squeeze continues. Up over 7% yesterday and up nearly 6% premarket as of writing.
 
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TJT

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I know I should have got on the NVDA train a long time ago. I guess I may as well buy some now.
 
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Jysin

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I know I should have got on the NVDA train a long time ago. I guess I may as well buy some now.

A news headline yesterday tipped the cards as to who has been buying AI hardware behind the scenes.
(Which should also be of no surprise whatsoever)

 
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The_Black_Log Foler

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I know I should have got on the NVDA train a long time ago. I guess I may as well buy some now.
I think maybe AMD is priced better to get in at this point and enjoy AI market rise for the next 3 years.
 

Cutlery

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A news headline yesterday tipped the cards as to who has been buying AI hardware behind the scenes.
(Which should also be of no surprise whatsoever)


Ah, so it's just like every other AI and only knows brown people
 
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Il_Duce Lightning Lord Rule

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-24% on SNOW after earnings.
From the ones to watch the guys in Fusion Elite were talking about:

CRM: down after earnings
SNOW: WAAAAY down after earnings
MARA: down bigly
OKTA: up like 19% last I saw


I just wish I wasn't west coast so markets open at 6am for me. Their ORB strats are no good for me unless I want to get up at 5am :(
 
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