Investing General Discussion

Gurgeh

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For anyone interested in learning an option strategy, I'll explain a little selling a put. Feel free to ignore this post if not interested :)

Let's say an investor is watching the S&P 500 who has $200,000 and is considering his options from now till year end. For whatever reason (geopolitical turmoil, valuations, possible recession, horizon for needing cash etc.) they decide the market is overvalued at today's price of $291/share. He does however believe he would be interested in buying into the market if it were to drop to $270/share (about 10% off ATH ie a correction). So this investor leaves his cash in a money market account earning about 1.8% and waits to see if the market drops to his desired level. So we have two possible outcomes, the market fails to reach his $270 level and he will make about $900 in interest during the three months or the market will drop to $270 or lower and he will invest.

Now what he could have done. is sell a PUT option. This is a contract to purchase shares at the strike on or before expiration. If he looks out to year end we have option contracts that expire on Dec 20, 2019 (There are weekly, monthly, and quarterly options and on an ETF like SPY there is a plethora of available choices for all time horizons.) Today's closing price on a $270 put contract on SPY expiring Dec 20th is $3.54. A single option contract is for 100 shares of the underlying security. So for each contract he would sell there would be $27,000 ($270x100) of obligation. This means that our investor has enough cash to cover 7 put contracts ($27k x 7 = $189k cash to secure) So the investor sells 7 contracts at $3.54 and immediately collects $2,478 that will be credited to his account. The three months pass and the investor will still collect the money market interest plus his money from selling the puts ($2,478+$900=$3,378). If the price of SPY is greater than $270 on Dec 20th the puts will expire worthless. The cash is freed up again and the investor keeps his $3,378 OR the market does indeed decline and on Exp day SPY is trading less than $270/share. In this case the investor will find himself the new owner of 700 shares of SPY @ $270 (at a cost basis of $266.46/share)better than the price he previously decided he would be interested in owning it at.

While most would agree that making $3,378 is nicer than $900 for an individual who was wanting and willing to buy SPY at the strike ($270) in Oct three months prior there are a few pitfalls to this.

1. SPY may drop below $270/share prior to Dec 20th and then recover. Now our investor could not purchase shares with his $189k because that cash was securing his put obligation. If the investor at that moment chooses to close the position (buy to close) he will pay a rather tidy sum because the value of the put will have risen potentially significantly from the time it was sold. This risk could be mitigated with yet further options strategies at that point but I don't want to over complicate it but to show that there is risk related to TIMING. This timing risk can be more straightforwardly be mitigated by selling options that are closer to expiration. In this scenario sell 7 of the 10/18 exp , then the 11/15 and then the 12/20 as each date comes up. This makes it more likely that the investor will get his shares if the market does fall to below the strike.

2. Another risk could be that SPY falls well below $270 so that at assignment you enter the position already significantly down. For example SPY falls to $250 on 12/20 you are now ($14,000) in the red at the time you receive the shares. To me this risk is not really a risk of the option contract but more how we perceive it. Remember we started this idea with the investor saying "I would pay $270 for SPY" well whenever a buyer established the price he will pay and acts, there is no way of knowing if a lower price could be had a week later that is an inherent risk of investing. If you lie to yourself at the start when picking the strike you will learn to regret it real quick then when your steadfastness it put to the test. It's easy when the market is at highs to say you would buy it cheaper. But cheaper doesn't come without the fear that drives the price there in the first place. Some investors then when faced with that fear find themselves flat footed when months earlier they were quite sure they would act.

It is this behavior that makes timing markets too precarious for people because it's easy to sell the market it's much harder to get back in. This is a reason I actually like this put option strategy because it locks you in when you have balls of steel and makes the decision upfront when you are of clearer mind and not in the moment of panic.

3. If the investor needs the cash during this 3mo. period there is a reasonable chance he can't exit the position without loss. Now this is again not a particular risk outside of the standard consideration of our investment horizons and need for money in the future, but I list it because it is a con compared to the money just sitting in a MM waiting for SPY to drop because each day the investor could change his mind and apply the cash elsewhere.

These risks should not be surprising as nobody is going to hand you $2,478 for nothing, but the risk compared to an investor who wants to be invested and is not comfortable with current levels, it is a much more efficient management of cash. There are more details and things to elaborate on but in the interest of brevity and not wanting to make this too confusing I try not to get too thick into it beyond what is needed to convey the idea.

If that is interesting to at least one person then I'm happy and could maybe even be helpful to someone in the future.
Keep in mind it's a tool when you want to bet against the market, and not only do you believe that the price is going to drop, but also that you can estimate how much it is going to drop. If it drops more than what you had estimated, it would have been better to wait with your cash and buy the shares at the expiration. Also, if the market goes up, you're losing money compared to having invested in it. Basicaly if this example, you win money if the price of the share is betweeen ~266 and 295 two months in the future, if it not, you lose money. It is a tool for expert traders.

If you don't have good reason to think that the market is going down, you're better off being invested in it, because the value of the PUT is computed with a low/no risk discount rate, i.e. far less than the average market performance. If you believe the market is going down, it might be prudent to keep your cash and handpick the time you're buying, because you might think TODAY that 270 would be the fair value, but if it drops to 270 three days later, your expectations are probably going to change and your you'd probably not be investing 200k on them but wait for it to drop more.

I'm pretty sure that PUT is a tool that on average is losing money to the individual investor, especialy the non-expert one.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Yes. But timing the market is... tough. What this thread shows is a couple if things. One is that we all have different basic stats to try to grab some money. Two is that pretty much everyone agrees that the most basic strategy of long term buy and hold of something like the SPY is the correct strategy for a majority of investors. It isn't fancy or exciting but over the long haul that annual average return of 9.5% is pretty hard to beat.
 

Blazin

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Keep in mind it's a tool when you want to bet against the market, and not only do you believe that the price is going to drop, but also that you can estimate how much it is going to drop. If it drops more than what you had estimated, it would have been better to wait with your cash and buy the shares at the expiration. Also, if the market goes up, you're losing money compared to having invested in it. Basicaly if this example, you win money if the price of the share is betweeen ~266 and 295 two months in the future, if it not, you lose money. It is a tool for expert traders.

If you don't have good reason to think that the market is going down, you're better off being invested in it, because the value of the PUT is computed with a low/no risk discount rate, i.e. far less than the average market performance. If you believe the market is going down, it might be prudent to keep your cash and handpick the time you're buying, because you might think TODAY that 270 would be the fair value, but if it drops to 270 three days later, your expectations are probably going to change and your you'd probably not be investing 200k on them but wait for it to drop more.

I'm pretty sure that PUT is a tool that on average is losing money to the individual investor, especialy the non-expert one.


So much wrong here it’s hard to know where to start. It seems there are some parts you get but your assessment is off base. I would be highly surprised if you are an experienced trader based on your post.

Not sure I want to spend the time correcting for a poster I don’t even know if they would read it or just felt like throwing their two cents in.
 

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Siliconemelons

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Well, my Stash ETF's have returned to where they were "post crash" of all of two weeks ago? so it did take longer to recover than the one from a month ago- but this time it was bigger.

Amazing these "Economy dissolving" crashes under Trump are just blips.

However while I was awaiting it to recover I did go find all my accounts

I have TIAA, E-Trade (because of buyouts/mergers) and STASH

etrade holds like 80$ in BlackBerry and 1$ in some left over penny stock, I think its funny getting huge quarterly reports and voting stuff about blackberry...hehe.
TIAA holds ~3k from a fund that was started when I worked for the college before I was budgeted / full time and in FRS - my contribution was ~1500, so its doubled in 18 years...heh.
STASH is 2 ETF's "Defending America" and "Delicious Dividends" @ ~ 5k each

And then I also have my "new" retirement 403b and of course my FRS that was my pension converted to investment funds.

The 403b has like 500$ in it only started last month or something because of how their cycles work. I was planning on moving the TIAA into it, and moving my STASH stuff to TIAA.. stash is 1$ a month? or maybe its 5$ now that I am over 10k..ehh..
 

Sanrith Descartes

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If you dont follow StockCats on twitter and you are on twitter, you are missing out.

 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Locnar

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What is a good low fee Fidelity mutual fund/index to put a nest egg into for retirement? Fidelity because that is what my work uses for their stock purchase plan and I don't want 10000 different accounts scattered around. I already max my 401k and roth each year.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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What is a good low fee Fidelity mutual fund/index to put a nest egg into for retirement? Fidelity because that is what my work uses for their stock purchase plan and I don't want 10000 different accounts scattered around. I already max my 401k and roth each year.
All BlackRock ETFs are commission free (or almost all). Those are called iShares.
ITOT is the iShares total market index ETF and IVV is the ishares SP500 index ETF. Net fees are 0.03 and 0.04 last time I checked. Basically almost fee-less.
 

Gurgeh

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My favorite part of the article is the "financial planner" saying how low-cost trades are bad because it encourages retail investors to make bad trades. This from a guy charging his clients percentages so he can make those bad trades for them.

Is it possible to get no-fee for direct shares trading in the USA ? Or are all those 0% fees only available through ETF ?
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Is it possible to get no-fee for direct shares trading in the USA ? Or are all those 0% fees only available through ETF ?
Fidelity has a list of everything that trades commission free. Up until the latest zero fee war they charged 4.95 a trade for shares. I believe they are now basically zero trade commissions on shares as well since like last week.
 

Gurgeh

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Fidelity has a list of everything that trades commission free. Up until the latest zero fee war they charged 4.95 a trade for shares. I believe they are now basically zero trade commissions on shares as well since like last week.
That's both interesting and scary. What's the catch ? With the ETF they allow themselves to lend shares they own, and therefore make money, but what do they get out of no-commission shares trading ? Or are the banks allowed to lend shares people brought through them in the USA ? In Europe it depends on the country, some allow it, but in France for example the share is brought in the customer's name and the bank isn't allowed to do anything with it, they aren't allowed to put them in their balance sheet (which sounds fair...), so they can't benefit from that either.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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That's both interesting and scary. What's the catch ? With the ETF they allow themselves to lend shares they own, and therefore make money, but what do they get out of no-commission shares trading ? Or are the banks allowed to lend shares people brought through them in the USA ? In Europe it depends on the country, some allow it, but in France for example the share is brought in the customer's name and the bank isn't allowed to do anything with it, they aren't allowed to put them in their balance sheet (which sounds fair...), so they can't benefit from that either.
I posted an article earlier today about Schwab. Apparently they dont make as much as people think from commissions anymore. They make a ton by investing people's cash positions it seems. And since the online brokers are going zero fee, they dont really have a choice.
 

Captain Suave

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I posted an article earlier today about Schwab. Apparently they dont make as much as people think from commissions anymore.

Schwab was interviewed on NPR the other day and he said commissions were <5% of revenue. It stings a bit but won't break the bank.

Once the first player in the industry went to zero fees and everyone else has to suck it up and follow or get left out.
 
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Poster

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I posted an article earlier today about Schwab. Apparently they dont make as much as people think from commissions anymore. They make a ton by investing people's cash positions it seems. And since the online brokers are going zero fee, they dont really have a choice.

This is accurate. Net interest margin (i.e., the spread between what the dealer/bank pays on your deposits/cash balance and what they earn using your money, for a bank, lending, for a brokerage, stock borrow, whatever) is Schwab's biggest source of revenue.

 
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Sanrith Descartes

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So I was speaking with an associate yesterday. It got me to thinking. Do the old adages of investing still apply in today's market. "Let your winners run" for example. I have a different idea. I see a value, I buy for the short term and set a price to sell based on my calculations and assumptions. I dont let my emotions interfere. This causes me to miss out on profit if I had "let it run". But I am taking cash off the table and banking it.

Latest example. I went long on Abbv after the plunge on the Allergan purchase news. In at $66. Ignored the continued dip to the bottom and then rode it up to $75 where I sold last week. Collected two $1.07 dividends on the way. Roughly 3 months and I got near a 17% return. This week it touched $77 on arthritis drug news. My friend is like "you shoulda let it run".

Am I being too conservative? My philosophy is bank the profit in the short run and look for the next play. Yes, I am leaving $$ on the table, but to me that "let the winners run" idea sounds more like betting on a hot streak at the craps table. That's nonsense. There is no "hot streak". There is just statistics and probability. Flip a coin 10 times and get ten heads, the odds of heads on flip 11 is still 50/50.

Thoughts?
 

Blazin

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If it’s not a retirement account your way is a lot more taxes, nor is what your doing investing it's trading. g/l
 
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Gurgeh

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So I was speaking with an associate yesterday. It got me to thinking. Do the old adages of investing still apply in today's market. "Let your winners run" for example. I have a different idea. I see a value, I buy for the short term and set a price to sell based on my calculations and assumptions. I dont let my emotions interfere. This causes me to miss out on profit if I had "let it run". But I am taking cash off the table and banking it.

Latest example. I went long on Abbv after the plunge on the Allergan purchase news. In at $66. Ignored the continued dip to the bottom and then rode it up to $75 where I sold last week. Collected two $1.07 dividends on the way. Roughly 3 months and I got near a 17% return. This week it touched $77 on arthritis drug news. My friend is like "you shoulda let it run".

Am I being too conservative? My philosophy is bank the profit in the short run and look for the next play. Yes, I am leaving $$ on the table, but to me that "let the winners run" idea sounds more like betting on a hot streak at the craps table. That's nonsense. There is no "hot streak". There is just statistics and probability. Flip a coin 10 times and get ten heads, the odds of heads on flip 11 is still 50/50.

Thoughts?
If you're having expectations on the future value of a stock, it means you don't believe it to be entirely random. If you don't believe it to be random, then it's not outlandish to assume to the variations of a given stock aren't independant of its past performance, so it's not like flips of a coin.

If you've own a stock that outperformed the market for 10 months in a row , the probability of it outperforming for an 11th one is certainly not 50%, but you do have to decide as to when you'll exit. Maybe you should make yourself a small algorithm, like you sell after it reached a certain value AND underperformed the market over an XX period, in your example it reached $75, if it was still outperforming the S&P500, you'd have kept it, and you'd sell it when it underperform over X days. That way, emotions aren't coming into play either .

Then you run a simulation of said algorithm on your past trades, and see if it would really have outperformed your current strategy significantly. It's a bit of a pita as you'd have to go through at least a hundred trades for it to be somewhat significant. You can even determine X empiricaly that way. The problem of course is , it's not because a strategy would have worked in the past that it's going to work in the future.
 

Blazin

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If you're having expectations on the future value of a stock, it means you don't believe it to be entirely random. If you don't believe it to be random, then it's not outlandish to assume to the variations of a given stock aren't independant of its past performance, so it's not like flips of a coin.

If you've own a stock that outperformed the market for 10 months in a row , the probability of it outperforming for an 11th one is certainly not 50%, but you do have to decide as to when you'll exit. Maybe you should make yourself a small algorithm, like you sell after it reached a certain value AND underperformed the market over an XX period, in your example it reached $75, if it was still outperforming the S&P500, you'd have kept it, and you'd sell it when it underperform over X days. That way, emotions aren't coming into play either .

Then you run a simulation of said algorithm on your past trades, and see if it would really have outperformed your current strategy significantly. It's a bit of a pita as you'd have to go through at least a hundred trades for it to be somewhat significant. You can even determine X empiricaly that way. The problem of course is , it's not because a strategy would have worked in the past that it's going to work in the future.

Right so sell netflix back in 2010 when you are up 15% not 1300%. Strong growing companies can outperform the market for over a decade. These exact kinda of ideas is what stops most people from achieving life changing returns by sticking with a long term trend and fundamental investing.