IT/Software career thread: Invert binary trees for dollars.

ex-genj

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cypress?

If you really want "when someone clicks on something something else happens" type tests unit tests on the code (jest/enzyme/mocha/chai etc etc) work fine. If nothing happens when someone clicks on something why do you need to test it beyond "it exists"?
 

Deathwing

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I did stumble upon Cypress, I'm looking into that some more Monday.

I don't think unit tests are enough here because they don't how the code functions inside our non-javascript code nor how the browser will react.
 

ex-genj

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Dom manipulation unit tests (enzyme if react) are exactly "how the browser will react" though, at least if written well i.e. when an html element with a class of foo is clicked, an html element with a class of bar is now in the dom, like when you want to test that a modal appears or whatever. But yeah what do I know I don't do QA and don't envy you :emoji_expressionless:
 

Deathwing

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Well, just assume I'm an idiot when it comes to JavaScript because I pretty much know nothing despite my strong opinions against it. For instance, Ive heard of a Dom but don't know what it is. I question if QA should be designing the tests instead implementing the tools for them.
 

ex-genj

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Yikes definitely see how the dom works/what it is (cliffs: the representation of your html that JS can use to do things) but yeah no developer does end to end tests really. Unit tests are their responsibility though. As the lead dev for my team I make my guys do unit tests at least to the point of "coverage doesn't go down".
 

Deathwing

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Why is QA better suited for developing end to end testing? I feel like not working in the codebase that's being tested is a severe handicap. Unless it's black box.
 

tyen

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Learn how to use Tensorflow if you wanna be relevant in the ML world.

ML is going to drive A LOT and its really simple. You just feed the beast with a problem and sample data, it will brute force and build predictions.

 
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Asshat wormie

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Learn how to use PyTorch. TF is ballsacks.

PS. Deep learning is a dead end if your interest is in the future. Don't waste your time unless you want to do shit that will be oversatured with tyen types yet low in demand in 5-10 years.
 
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tyen

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Learn how to use PyTorch. TF is ballsacks.

PS. Deep learning is a dead end if your interest is in the future. Don't waste your time unless you want to do shit that will be oversatured with tyen types yet low in demand in 5-10 years.

ML is crowdsourced trial and error, and brute force on sample data.

Deep learning is just the same word with more emphasis on the neural network (crowdsourced computing).

The computers are just doing the same thing a large number of people do, thats the "neural network","crowdsourced","deep learning" aspect. Whatever synonym you like to use.

The applications of spotting eye disease more than a doctor taking his recognition knowledge with his caveman eyeballs far exceed anything available
 

Asshat wormie

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ML is crowdsourced trial and error, and brute force on sample data.

Deep learning is just the same word with more emphasis on the neural network (crowdsourced computing).

The computers are just doing the same thing a large number of people do, thats the "neural network","crowdsourced","deep learning" aspect. Whatever synonym you like to use.

The applications of spotting eye disease more than a doctor taking his recognition knowledge with his caveman eyeballs far exceed anything available
That is quiet a buzzwordy nonsense soup you barfed up there. I do enjoy you going from "zomg its crowd sourcing" to "zomg its an improvement on human cognition" in a single thought. The ignorant tech journalists whose sole purpose is to sell ads by hyping up shit they dont understand would be proud.

Deep learning has been around for 60 years and it is nothing but fairly complex and fancy optimization and curve fitting approaches to data analysis that has existed for centuries. Its success now is due entirely to the massive amounts of data we collect and the improvements in brute force computational power. As such, it is a powerful tool in any computational data examination.

However, unlike what you are implying, deep learning is not the step closer to computers having human level of pattern matching. The artificial neural network meant to mimic the human neural network replaces millions of years of heuristics honed through evolutionary processes with computational neurons meant to introduce non linearity to the system. These for many reasons are not a sufficient replacement but the most important reason I will discuss next.

Data that we have is information processed by humans. As such, if you can imagine the set of all data, the human is observing this set from the outside. You can think of the human as being a function mapping from the set of information to the set of data. A large portion of this function is the aforementioned heuristics. The computer on the other hand, does not exist outside the set of data and actually exists inside the data as it is human made. In other words, the computer is examining the data from within and does not have the luxury of processing information that the humans have. This leads to the normal self referential paradoxes which force either a complete or consistent system. Because of this, the computer will never be able to attain the levels of cognition that a human has and will always be limited to some percentages of human capability, like where the deep learning systems are at currently. That is, while deep learning will be fairly close to human cognition, it will forever make catastrophic mistakes like confusing ice cream cones for busses, chihuahua for muffins and gorillas for black people.

Why the fuck is this drivel here? Because Deep Learning is ridiculously hyped up. However, almost all the gains are not from the advances in AI but from advances in computational infrastructure which is usually omitted in the hype. The gains that are currently touted have stalled and will not go anywhere past maybe another small % increases. In a decade, deep learning will be nothing but another black box method that someone will plug data into and get some information out of it. It is a dead end just like it was in the 80s as far as AI is concerned. Now this is my opinion of course and if people want to learn this shit, they are welcome to it as long as they are aware that the sources they should be using are academic and not journalist originated trash.

As to the video, two minute papers is an excellent youtube channel that people should follow and watch. However, dont be a Tyen and hype up a piece of research that has not being validated or replicated. The only thing to take from that video is that it is an interesting application of something most of you do as a means to earn a living, i.e. using computers to accomplish some task.

Oh and a PS: IMO Human level AI is not possible on von Neumann architecture.

TLDR: Turing/Church/Godel > von Neumann >> deep learning >>>>>>>>> potato >>>>> tyen
 
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ShakyJake

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Well, just assume I'm an idiot when it comes to JavaScript because I pretty much know nothing despite my strong opinions against it. For instance, Ive heard of a Dom but don't know what it is. I question if QA should be designing the tests instead implementing the tools for them.
What is your application doing with these canvas objects?

We're developing with Angular and our QA team is doing everything with Selenium. I know they're struggling, though, and I'm not sure how much progress they've made. Our dev team has been pretty much abandoned doing any unit testing in Angular. The amount of effort to create the most rudimentary of tests has made everyone 'nope' out of that.
 

Deathwing

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What is your application doing with these canvas objects?

We're developing with Angular and our QA team is doing everything with Selenium. I know they're struggling, though, and I'm not sure how much progress they've made. Our dev team has been pretty much abandoned doing any unit testing in Angular. The amount of effort to create the most rudimentary of tests has made everyone 'nope' out of that.
Using it to draw the majority of the screen. There will still be some html controls, but most of what the user sees will be inside that canvas. I'm thinking Selenium is a waste of time in this setup.
 

Deathwing

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I know I've raised this question before, but I'm honestly not remembering getting an answer last time. Why is QA typically tasked with designing tests for code they didn't write? Outside of blackboxing, this seems like a really stupid setup but is quite common in software. When I did QA in hardware, the designers provided QA with a spec/design sheet and we developed our test programs to the specs.
 

Vinen

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I know I've raised this question before, but I'm honestly not remembering getting an answer last time. Why is QA typically tasked with designing tests for code they didn't write? Outside of blackboxing, this seems like a really stupid setup but is quite common in software. When I did QA in hardware, the designers provided QA with a spec/design sheet and we developed our test programs to the specs.

QA is a dead career. In most modern companies Developers are directly responsible for this.
 

ShakyJake

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Using it to draw the majority of the screen. There will still be some html controls, but most of what the user sees will be inside that canvas. I'm thinking Selenium is a waste of time in this setup.
We explored one testing method of comparing screenshots, which might work well for canvas controls? I don't have any framework names to suggest but apparently a few exist.
 

Vinen

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We explored one testing method of comparing screenshots, which might work well for canvas controls? I don't have any framework names to suggest but apparently a few exist.

They exist and are an uttttter pain in the ass. Image comparison is notoriously flakey. I managed a framework a decade ago to do this for broadcast rendering. I'd assume its gotten better but like most UI testing its almost as expensive to maintain as it is to perform manual reviews.
 
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Deathwing

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QA is a dead career. In most modern companies Developers are directly responsible for this.
What would you call the people that develop and maintain the tools developers use to do these tasks? Essentially, the code that runs those tests and then aggregates and shows test results.
 

Ao-

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What would you call the people that develop and maintain the tools developers use to do these tasks? Essentially, the code that runs those tests and then aggregates and shows test results.
What would I call people who develop tools and maintain them? I'd call them developers.
 
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