IT/Software career thread: Invert binary trees for dollars.

Noodleface

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I interviewed for IonQ and while quantum computing sounds like bullshit the job sounded fun. But they sent me a take home coding project and I noped out immediately.

I have 15 years experience. Im not a junior dev trying to prove myself.

Why is this the standard now?
 
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Neranja

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Why is this the standard now?
Because HR and recruiters have become even more stupid, while technology has become more complex and changes even faster.

Back in my day it all started with "Need 5 years of experience in Java" when Java was barely 2 years old.
 
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Haus

I am Big Balls!
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Saw this today....


This one in particular was a full metaphorical drop kick in my junk...
1771865555839.png
 

Siliconemelons

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I interviewed for IonQ and while quantum computing sounds like bullshit the job sounded fun. But they sent me a take home coding project and I noped out immediately.

I have 15 years experience. Im not a junior dev trying to prove myself.

Why is this the standard now?

Because HR and recruiters have become even more stupid, while technology has become more complex and changes even faster.

Back in my day it all started with "Need 5 years of experience in Java" when Java was barely 2 years old.

Having a breif stint in HR, as a Prof Dev LMS admin - but being in the HR department and going to all the meetings (omg) - here are some aspects of the hiring process...

In places such as Florida where you have classifications of employees that are /except/ from certain labor laws (or follow different sets of laws) you have to have *at the ready* a list of applicable reasons and qualifications for it.

Such as, in Florida, to have an "exempt" employee - aka what many see as a normal "Salary" person, aka no OT, no hour reporting for per hr pay etc- they have to meet a variable list of things, they have to make a certain amount (when I was there is was 42k+ except teachers lulz they were 35k)- min level of edu, usually BA/BS+ and combo of degree + years exp in the job/area.

That is just one thing, usually related to labor laws. Any variation of that you have to be able to justify, THEN you have to add in another layer...usually an internal layer of justification- esp in I.T.- if you are in a place with job tiers and classifications, IT is usually 2-3 tiers above "their counterpart" equivalent in different departments - and it does not really matter what the jobs are or what they do... but the fact that you have T1 Job @ 7$ hour and T2 @ 11$, but the first "IT" job is T3 @ 15$, HR looks at it as "first level IT is > others....why?"

DevOpsMgr: "I want to hire Bob, he has been doing COBOL since 1970 and we want to pay him 250k a year for 3 years to migrate our legacy code." -
HR: 250k is a T19-21 job, so he will be a VP, Jr.Exec or something?
DevOpsMgr "Umm no...but"
HR: Well why is he getting paid that much, has he got 10 years exp being a CSuite? or Executive Admin?
DevOpsMgr "No...he has decades programming what we need"
HR: Okay, got it, I looked it up, our Senior Programmers are T16, salary range max is 185k, so I will post that and send you the link for him to apply.
DevOpsMgr "Can he make 250k?"
HR "You can request that salary when you hire him... but you will need justification"
DevOpsMgr "What type of justification?"
HR "How is he over the maximum requirements for the T16 role."
DevOpsMgr "An example?"
HR "Look at the requirements of the tier job that would have the minimum salary you are asking for."
DevOpsMgr "like decades doing the coding we need?"
HR "No, that would just be used to justify him getting the top of the tier16, it would need to be something like exp in being a VP, Executive Admin etc. to justify having the salary above his tier max"
DevOpsMgr "But we cant just post it at the higher tier?"
HR "No"
DevOpsMgr "Bob said he may do it for 185k"
HR "Great, so I will post the job!"
*crickets*
*crickets*
DevOpsMgr "Hey, I haven't seen Bob's job process though"
HR "We sent you applicants"
DevOpsMgr "I dont see bob"
HR "Oh, well he is a white male, so... you have to meet our diversity requirements, you have to interview at least 3 of the ones we sent you- then if they do not meet the needs of the job listing needs you have to let us know, we will re-review the applicant pool and give you more to look through."
DevOpsMgr *goes though the hoops* - hey HR... can you process Bobs application now?
HR "You sent in your justification letter, but we feel that Black Lady Yolanda meets the needs of the job listing, so we hired her."
DevOpsMgr "No she does not, she does not meet our needs"
HR "She meets the requirements of the T16 Programmer listing."
DevOpsMgr "I am just going to hire a H1B consultant pooman"
HR "Excellent! oh and Yolanda starts tomorrow as well!"
 
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Vinen

God is dead
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Avoided layoffs. Now have more reports....

Every 3 months is worth 300K+ USD if not more. Breath....
 
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Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
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Avoided layoffs. Now have more reports....

Every 3 months is worth 300K+ USD if not more. Breath....
It isn't that much better here. Every month or so we have to look around and wonder who they laid off from engineering.

I now have a team of 3 working under me
 

Nija

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My project manager got the axe because he ”wasn’t a doer” and guess what? I’m now managing 4 additional projects. I am not really a project manager. Had to change to the $200/mo Claude plan to keep up with everything.
 
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Borzak

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Apply for expeditor, as I learned it's a lot like PM but you have a free license to yell at people to get on the ball and get stuff done. It is encouraged in the job title. Pay may be less but you get to work off any issues often lol.

I'm not in IT obvioiusly or anything related but has your industry seen a huge influx of people that are in the PM job title because it's cheaper than a raise but aren't really PM people at all?

I know when I worked in San Antonio we advertised for a PM and listed all the things we do that have nothing to do with computers. A large percentage of the applicants were from the nearby Austin area that were 200% computer/software people. I'm sure they were all bots but still.
 

Noodleface

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I think companies realize 99% of their PMs are useless, so might as well put an engineer in the role that can lead a schedule while also being technically proficient
 
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ShakyJake

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I think companies realize 99% of their PMs are useless, so might as well put an engineer in the role that can lead a schedule while also being technically proficient
Our project managers don't know shit about anything. And they are forced to write user stories which is a complete joke.
 

Quevy

<Gold Donor>
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Having a breif stint in HR, as a Prof Dev LMS admin - but being in the HR department and going to all the meetings (omg) - here are some aspects of the hiring process...

In places such as Florida where you have classifications of employees that are /except/ from certain labor laws (or follow different sets of laws) you have to have *at the ready* a list of applicable reasons and qualifications for it.

Such as, in Florida, to have an "exempt" employee - aka what many see as a normal "Salary" person, aka no OT, no hour reporting for per hr pay etc- they have to meet a variable list of things, they have to make a certain amount (when I was there is was 42k+ except teachers lulz they were 35k)- min level of edu, usually BA/BS+ and combo of degree + years exp in the job/area.

That is just one thing, usually related to labor laws. Any variation of that you have to be able to justify, THEN you have to add in another layer...usually an internal layer of justification- esp in I.T.- if you are in a place with job tiers and classifications, IT is usually 2-3 tiers above "their counterpart" equivalent in different departments - and it does not really matter what the jobs are or what they do... but the fact that you have T1 Job @ 7$ hour and T2 @ 11$, but the first "IT" job is T3 @ 15$, HR looks at it as "first level IT is > others....why?"

DevOpsMgr: "I want to hire Bob, he has been doing COBOL since 1970 and we want to pay him 250k a year for 3 years to migrate our legacy code." -
HR: 250k is a T19-21 job, so he will be a VP, Jr.Exec or something?
DevOpsMgr "Umm no...but"
HR: Well why is he getting paid that much, has he got 10 years exp being a CSuite? or Executive Admin?
DevOpsMgr "No...he has decades programming what we need"
HR: Okay, got it, I looked it up, our Senior Programmers are T16, salary range max is 185k, so I will post that and send you the link for him to apply.
DevOpsMgr "Can he make 250k?"
HR "You can request that salary when you hire him... but you will need justification"
DevOpsMgr "What type of justification?"
HR "How is he over the maximum requirements for the T16 role."
DevOpsMgr "An example?"
HR "Look at the requirements of the tier job that would have the minimum salary you are asking for."
DevOpsMgr "like decades doing the coding we need?"
HR "No, that would just be used to justify him getting the top of the tier16, it would need to be something like exp in being a VP, Executive Admin etc. to justify having the salary above his tier max"
DevOpsMgr "But we cant just post it at the higher tier?"
HR "No"
DevOpsMgr "Bob said he may do it for 185k"
HR "Great, so I will post the job!"
*crickets*
*crickets*
DevOpsMgr "Hey, I haven't seen Bob's job process though"
HR "We sent you applicants"
DevOpsMgr "I dont see bob"
HR "Oh, well he is a white male, so... you have to meet our diversity requirements, you have to interview at least 3 of the ones we sent you- then if they do not meet the needs of the job listing needs you have to let us know, we will re-review the applicant pool and give you more to look through."
DevOpsMgr *goes though the hoops* - hey HR... can you process Bobs application now?
HR "You sent in your justification letter, but we feel that Black Lady Yolanda meets the needs of the job listing, so we hired her."
DevOpsMgr "No she does not, she does not meet our needs"
HR "She meets the requirements of the T16 Programmer listing."
DevOpsMgr "I am just going to hire a H1B consultant pooman"
HR "Excellent! oh and Yolanda starts tomorrow as well!"
Were the HR policies written by an MBA?
 
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Siliconemelons

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Were the HR policies written by an MBA?
There is a high probability a MBA did about 50% of anything from 1990-2010 anywhere in the USA lol - you know how many MBA's where churned out en mass during those times - isnt that like the main "craze" that Trump U was doing was force feeding MBA's in and out the door.
 
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Quevy

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There is a high probability a MBA did about 50% of anything from 1990-2010 anywhere in the USA lol - you know how many MBA's where churned out en mass during those times - isnt that like the main "craze" that Trump U was doing was force feeding MBA's in and out the door.
Yeah, I remember. I had so many friends that went on to get MBA, and it didn't matter if the school was shitty or not. Recruiters were offering 20% more for anyone with them. I almost decided to get one, too. However after taking a few MBA classes in undergrad, I realized it was just a big joke. It was was basically a writing class + how to apply models, like the Porter 5. The pay and position chart just reminds me of something that could have come out from one of my business classes.
 
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Siliconemelons

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Yeah, I remember. I had so many friends that went on to get MBA, and it didn't matter if the school was shitty or not. Recruiters were offering 20% more for anyone with them. I almost decided to get one, too. However after taking a few MBA classes in undergrad, I realized it was just a big joke. It was was basically a writing class + how to apply models, like the Porter 5. The pay and position chart just reminds me of something that could have come out from one of my business classes.

Yup, its sad, then HR - HR-atizes it and you get all sorts of, sad.
 
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TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Okay boys. I got another job offer for a job I think I want. The offer is for a staff role in their data platform org. Its a rapidly growing company at $2B ARR. They are more mature in data organization but a bit behind on the tooling I prefer. This is because I had total control of data infra at my current place, or at least de facto control. I've tried to get the company to adopt the strategy of getting technically proficient data people in their business teams for years with limited success.

This company hires "analytics engineers" directly to work in that slice of the business as this is ultimately much more efficient. This is a very hard conversation to have with business teams as they never understand that value and just go with the cheaper fresh grad data analyst because he's 1/3 the price of an AE. Perpetuating the same problems. They are technically behind where I've led my current company in various ways but their org is larger and they want to update so I get it.

Having a bit of a dilemma choosing though so I am spending the weekend deliberating on it. I would appreciate any and all ridicule, insults, and maybe a kernel of decent advice you are willing to provide.

I main concern is that I am trading 7 years of seniority I enjoy and de facto total control of data infrastructure to start greenfield once again. Albeit in a much more senior role and about $50k more in income. Income being the least of reasons to take the job. I have been promoted 4 times in 7 years at my current company and I would inevitably get promoted again as we ride to $1B in revenue (prob 3 years away, maybe 4).

I am not getting any younger and I have always known my current place underpays a bit relative to the market and I never really cared. I still don't care about that. So I am looking at tradeoffs.

Current:
  • De Facto ownership of entire data platform.
  • Lots of seniority and tenure I enjoy.
  • SAAS company. Strong product, I would recommend it to anyone in the space it occupies.
  • Free to experiment with whatever and include whatever (within $ reason of course).
  • Awesome company, I have always loved working here.
  • Would be promoted again eventually.
  • Org is slow to adopt data modernization as described above.
  • Real Time data processing not necessary for the business side (I researched this for them for several years and despite their OMG REAL TIME, it had almost no impact on the business itself. It only mattered to keep the product itself functioning well).
New:
  • Behind on the tech a little bit, but recognize the things I have been doing recently as where they want to go.
  • Ahead on the organizational strategy for the company.
  • Very rapid growth.
  • SAAS/Standard service company kind of hybrid thing. Interesting product I see their value to real world stuff. Logistics company.
  • Real time data processing is integral for both the product and running the business itself which interests me from a technical perspective.
  • I explicitly asked about growth in the org and they were very direct about it (unless lying to me I guess) they wanted someone who can mentor and lead the org some which is the direction I want to go. As I am almost 40 (god damn).

I'll have to go to the office 2x a week but I am actually grateful for that as I have been WFH for 5 years now and even I need to get out of the house a bit more. As introverted as I may be.
 
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M Power

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Okay boys. I got another job offer for a job I think I want. The offer is for a staff role in their data platform org. Its a rapidly growing company at $2B ARR. They are more mature in data organization but a bit behind on the tooling I prefer. This is because I had total control of data infra at my current place, or at least de facto control. I've tried to get the company to adopt the strategy of getting technically proficient data people in their business teams for years with limited success.

This company hires "analytics engineers" directly to work in that slice of the business as this is ultimately much more efficient. This is a very hard conversation to have with business teams as they never understand that value and just go with the cheaper fresh grad data analyst because he's 1/3 the price of an AE. Perpetuating the same problems. They are technically behind where I've led my current company in various ways but their org is larger and they want to update so I get it.

Having a bit of a dilemma choosing though so I am spending the weekend deliberating on it. I would appreciate any and all ridicule, insults, and maybe a kernel of decent advice you are willing to provide.

I main concern is that I am trading 7 years of seniority I enjoy and de facto total control of data infrastructure to start greenfield once again. Albeit in a much more senior role and about $50k more in income. Income being the least of reasons to take the job. I have been promoted 4 times in 7 years at my current company and I would inevitably get promoted again as we ride to $1B in revenue (prob 3 years away, maybe 4).

I am not getting any younger and I have always known my current place underpays a bit relative to the market and I never really cared. I still don't care about that. So I am looking at tradeoffs.

Current:
  • De Facto ownership of entire data platform.
  • Lots of seniority and tenure I enjoy.
  • SAAS company. Strong product, I would recommend it to anyone in the space it occupies.
  • Free to experiment with whatever and include whatever (within $ reason of course).
  • Awesome company, I have always loved working here.
  • Would be promoted again eventually.
  • Org is slow to adopt data modernization as described above.
  • Real Time data processing not necessary for the business side (I researched this for them for several years and despite their OMG REAL TIME, it had almost no impact on the business itself. It only mattered to keep the product itself functioning well).
New:
  • Behind on the tech a little bit, but recognize the things I have been doing recently as where they want to go.
  • Ahead on the organizational strategy for the company.
  • Very rapid growth.
  • SAAS/Standard service company kind of hybrid thing. Interesting product I see their value to real world stuff. Logistics company.
  • Real time data processing is integral for both the product and running the business itself which interests me from a technical perspective.
  • I explicitly asked about growth in the org and they were very direct about it (unless lying to me I guess) they wanted someone who can mentor and lead the org some which is the direction I want to go. As I am almost 40 (god damn).

I'll have to go to the office 2x a week but I am actually grateful for that as I have been WFH for 5 years now and even I need to get out of the house a bit more. As introverted as I may be.
I'd look at the market more than anything. Do you feel high job security where you're at? Do you think this new company won't have any sort of layoffs over the next couple years after they/you upgrade things and mentor the people? If it was me I'd stay where I am since $50k doesn't mean much to you anyway. You say you'll get promotions in your current place so what's the point of leaving?
 
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TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I did the counteroffer thing at company A 5 years ago and I will try it again as the leadership involved in that has all moved on.
 
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TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I'd look at the market more than anything. Do you feel high job security where you're at? Do you think this new company won't have any sort of layoffs over the next couple years after they/you upgrade things and mentor the people? If it was me I'd stay where I am since $50k doesn't mean much to you anyway. You say you'll get promotions in your current place so what's the point of leaving?
The new place is logistics based and their growth has been due to effectiveness and increasing reputation so I don't see it going away or anything.

Some Greenfield dev sounds a bit nice overall. It has been a little tiring to be in the exact same codebases for 7 years ya know?
 
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