Medical Bills/Bankruptcy/etc.

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

Hey Rerolled bro's.

My intent in this post isn't necessarily to ask legal advice, as I am currently contacting some offices for that purpose. However, I am looking for any input if anyone has experienced difficulties with medical bills and collections.

To try to sum it up as concisely as I can, last year was a shit year for me with some pet/family deaths etc. Due to this stress, I wanted to seek help which led to me having a hospital stay back in September that was mandatory as they believed I would inflict self harm (not the case, I was certainly upset, and was sent there through my employee assistance program seeking a referral with the intent of getting help outside of the hospital), and the hospital would not allow me to refuse treatment. As such, I was forced to stay 4 days, and after insurance paid their portion, had a bill that I could not, and still cannot afford.

I pushed back and forth with their billing office and even applied for aid listing my total income, current expenses etc. (which btw, their form they had me use was probably the least official/professional looking form I've ever seen) To prove that I could NOT afford the bill, let alone payments in amounts that they were asking (realistically I was going negative already and had to make cuts elsewhere). The guy then replied in e-mail (which I believe can be used legally in my favor) to make a payment of any amount that I could monthly, without fail (Good faith payment?). And i did.

Well, 3 months later after doing this without fail per his instructions, the checks being cashed, etc. I received a letter that they had moved the debt to collections.

I know I should not be confirming any debt with the collectors etc as it can be used against me. I will, if necessary, be going over that with legal assistance available through my work. I am also researching possibly filing bankruptcy as a last resort, but I really hope it doesn't have to come to that.

But if anyone has experienced something similar and had taken any actions that were useful to them in this situation that they could share, I would be greatly appreciative. I know this stuff can vary state to state legal wise.

Palum · Mar 8, 2016

Tarisk_sl said:
Hey Rerolled bro's.

My intent in this post isn't necessarily to ask legal advice, as I am currently contacting some offices for that purpose. However, I am looking for any input if anyone has experienced difficulties with medical bills and collections.

To try to sum it up as concisely as I can, last year was a shit year for me with some pet/family deaths etc. Due to this stress, I wanted to seek help which led to me having a hospital stay back in September that was mandatory as they believed I would inflict self harm (not the case, I was certainly upset, and was sent there through my employee assistance program seeking a referral with the intent of getting help outside of the hospital), and the hospital would not allow me to refuse treatment. As such, I was forced to stay 4 days, and after insurance paid their portion, had a bill that I could not, and still cannot afford.

I pushed back and forth with their billing office and even applied for aid listing my total income, current expenses etc. (which btw, their form they had me use was probably the least official/professional looking form I've ever seen) To prove that I could NOT afford the bill, let alone payments in amounts that they were asking (realistically I was going negative already and had to make cuts elsewhere). The guy then replied in e-mail (which I believe can be used legally in my favor) to make a payment of any amount that I could monthly, without fail (Good faith payment?). And i did.

Well, 3 months later after doing this without fail per his instructions, the checks being cashed, etc. I received a letter that they had moved the debt to collections.

I know I should not be confirming any debt with the collectors etc as it can be used against me. I will, if necessary, be going over that with legal assistance available through my work. I am also researching possibly filing bankruptcy as a last resort, but I really hope it doesn't have to come to that.

But if anyone has experienced something similar and had taken any actions that were useful to them in this situation that they could share, I would be greatly appreciative. I know this stuff can vary state to state legal wise.

Yea I'm thinking there's way too much going on here to give you any advice. You don't just get detained against your will at a hospital by the not-police and 'yea, shit happens I guess'. You don't seem to indicate the billing was erroneously for the care, so then maybe bankruptcy is your only option.

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

Well, I'm not sure if it's state law or more national. But basically they claim if they believe you are a danger to yourself or others, they can legally keep you there. I told them when I was first talking with them I knew I could not afford the stay and they still kept me.

But yeah, I wasn't having high hopes for responses here. Just checking anyway.

Palum · Mar 8, 2016

I mean, either they had physicians certification and/or a judicial order to keep you because you were a danger, or you simply sue for false imprisonment. I don't know what to say other than if their explanation and following of the law was correct then I'm not sure what you can do on that end other than argue that you signed no agreement to pay for the hospital stay and the physicians decided to provide the services so you are not obligated to pay for the debt. Except that you already did pay towards it.

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

Yeah, I was a bit naive in that regard. Mainly because I dont deny that I needed some assistance. The person who admitted me was not a doctor but just someone in charge of intake assessment. The doctors themselves were not in at that hour.

In my own ignorance and the way I answered some questions with cynicism, is basically what they used as a reason to detain me. Even though to every person I explained it to (in person) to express my tone, etc. could tell I was not serious. I really feel it was just an excuse to get guaranteed income and exploit a law to claim it was to protect me from self harm.

Technically, even before I paid the minor amounts in good faith, they still received most of it from my insurance. They gathered all that crap before they forced the stay on me.

Behemoth_sl · Mar 8, 2016

In the United States as long as you are actively making payments on a medical debt they should not be able to report you to a credit bureau or send you to collections. If you miss payments then they can and it is very hard to recover from. If you can afford to keep sending them $25 a month forever then there is not much else they can legally do to get more money out of you. If you do come into some money and want to pay off the balance, typically you can call in and say I will pay 50% of my remaining balance today if the other half can get written off and they will work something out with you. None of what I just wrote will prevent them from attempting to scare/bully you into paying more. They will say things like your minimum payment on X balance is $400 a month, but just keep sending them $25. It sucks and is part of the reason healthcare is so ridiculously expensive.

Picasso3 · Mar 8, 2016

^ have heard stories of people just sending $1 a month.

AngryGerbil · Mar 8, 2016

Behemoth_sl said:
In the United States as long as you are actively making payments on a medical debt they should not be able to report you to a credit bureau or send you to collections. If you miss payments then they can and it is very hard to recover from. If you can afford to keep sending them $25 a month forever then there is not much else they can legally do to get more money out of you. If you do come into some money and want to pay off the balance, typically you can call in and say I will pay 50% of my remaining balance today if the other half can get written off and they will work something out with you. None of what I just wrote will prevent them from attempting to scare/bully you into paying more. They will say things like your minimum payment on X balance is $400 a month, but just keep sending them $25. It sucks and is part of the reason healthcare is so ridiculously expensive.

This is basically the right answer. I used to negotiate these monthly payments with patients from the other side of the aisle and I was encouraged to squeeze people as hard as I could, but ultimately I had to accept whatever they were willing to give. So yeah, they will talk a much bigger game than they can play. All bark no bite. And banks only barely care about medical debt anyway. They know how it is. I'm not saying medical debt isn't real, but I wouldn't go declaring bankruptcy over it just yet. Just send them a small amount each month. And I'd call and get that shit out of collections if you can. The collections people are way worse than the hospital billing people, trust me.

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

AngryGerbil_sl said:
This is basically the right answer. I used to negotiate these monthly payments with patients from the other side of the aisle and I was encouraged to squeeze people as hard as I could, but ultimately I had to accept whatever they were willing to give. So yeah, they will talk a much bigger game than they can play. All bark no bite. And banks only barely care about medical debt anyway. They know how it is. I'm not saying medical debt isn't real, but I wouldn't go declaring bankruptcy over it just yet. Just send them a small amount each month. And I'd call and get that shit out of collections if you can. The collections people are way worse than the hospital billing people, trust me.

That's exactly what I was doing. The problem was this stupid hospital took 3 months to even send me the first bill. I started working with their billing office the moment I finally got it. When I did, he said to do pretty much this also. And so I started sending in the payments. However, after doing this 3 months straight, and it showing on the statements they were sending that it was being taken off, they still sent me to collections.

Kuriin · Mar 8, 2016

Palum_sl said:
I mean, either they had physicians certification and/or a judicial order to keep you because you were a danger, or you simply sue for false imprisonment. I don't know what to say other than if their explanation and following of the law was correct then I'm not sure what you can do on that end other than argue that you signed no agreement to pay for the hospital stay and the physicians decided to provide the services so you are not obligated to pay for the debt. Except that you already did pay towards it.

Palum, he mentioned that he was 5150'd (involuntary hold for either grave disability, danger to self, or danger to others) because they suspected he would inflict harm to himself. Tarisk, I hope you get this straightened out.

Noodleface · Mar 8, 2016

Is the debt to the collection agency large? I assume it is, based on your stay.

Typically collection agencies will also settle as they buy the debt at pennies to the dollar, but I don't really know what you're working with right now.

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

Noodlemod_sl said:
Is the debt to the collection agency large? I assume it is, based on your stay.

Typically collection agencies will also settle as they buy the debt at pennies to the dollar, but I don't really know what you're working with right now.

I only got the letter yesterday. Haven't had much time to research them. Dont even remember their name. But yeah, I'm under the same impression that they just paid a low amount for it.

And ty, Noodle.

Noodleface · Mar 8, 2016

Also you may want to post this on /r/personalfinance. They'll require as many details as you can give them, but really the guys there give absolutely solid advice on your best options.

Palum · Mar 8, 2016

Noodlemod_sl said:
Is the debt to the collection agency large? I assume it is, based on your stay.

Typically collection agencies will also settle as they buy the debt at pennies to the dollar, but I don't really know what you're working with right now.

Not all collection agencies are debt buyers and even if this one buys some debt, the account may have been referred, not sold. In fact I would be VERY surprised if they sold a medical debt 3 months after receiving payments on it. Selling all receivables for pennies is a quick way to run your business into the ground. If they are simply collecting on the account, they are only able to settle per the hospital's wishes as it is still their account.

The collection agency likely isn't going to be able to fix anything here since the hospital is the major issue. I think the only prudent way forward here is to get a lawyer involved ASAP.

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

So an update. I found out this isn't really a formal collections agency. They are the company (or the hospital claims) that acts on behalf of the hospital specifically for collecting the debts and it's not yet been sold to a 3rd party agency. therefore not yet affecting my credit. however it's still a bs situation(to me).

Palum · Mar 8, 2016

Tarisk_sl said:
So an update. I found out this isn't really a formal collections agency. They are the company (or the hospital claims) that acts on behalf of the hospital specifically for collecting the debts and it's not yet been sold to a 3rd party agency. therefore not yet affecting my credit. however it's still a bs situation(to me).

That is a 'formal' collections agency. I'm not sure why you think selling the debt is necessary for a third party to collect on it? Being sold has nothing to do with credit reporting, they can do it as well as anyone. Did someone actually tell you that or are you assuming?

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

Palum_sl said:
That is a 'formal' collections agency. I'm not sure why you think selling the debt is necessary for a third party to collect on it? Being sold has nothing to do with credit reporting, they can do it as well as anyone. Did someone actually tell you that or are you assuming?

Yeah, they claimed it's not going to affect my credit rating at this time. They dont pass off debt in the standard sense as if they were unable to collect, selling to agency for cheap, then agency gets my money. They actually act as the finance company specifically for the hospital. I guess their parent company? I haven't had time to clarify further, but it's what the guy in the billing office told me. However, I'm not going to pretend like everything is ok. I'm still going to meet with some legal council, etc.

Gavinmad · Mar 8, 2016

Kuriin_sl said:
Palum, he mentioned that he was 5150'd (involuntary hold for either grave disability, danger to self, or danger to others) because they suspected he would inflict harm to himself. Tarisk, I hope you get this straightened out.

Tarisk do you have or have you seen proof that you were committed to an involuntary psych hold by someone actually authorized to do so? I'd be damn sure to get that and make sure it's air tight, and if it isn't sue them for false imprisonment. I cannot even begin to fathom that you can be put on a psych hold that you are then forced to pay for. Something here smells rotten as fuck.

Tarisk · Mar 8, 2016

Gavinmad_sl said:
Tarisk do you have or have you seen proof that you were committed to an involuntary psych hold by someone actually authorized to do so? I'd be damn sure to get that and make sure it's air tight, and if it isn't sue them for false imprisonment. I cannot even begin to fathom that you can be put on a psych hold that you are then forced to pay for. Something here smells rotten as fuck.

That's exactly how I feel about it. No one was there to witness it other than the person who did the assessment/asked me the questions who then said i had to stay. Who im pretty sure was nothing more than a basic nurse at most. Hard to say. That's a big thing I want to discuss with a lawyer

Kuriin · Mar 8, 2016

Involuntary holds are still billed to the patient. It is possible, I would imagine, to fight a 5150 and treat it as false imprisonment. But, you would have to get statements from the nurses at least. Vanderhoof would definitely be more up on the know on this subject as he's a psychiatric NP.

Medical Bills/Bankruptcy/etc.

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