ZyyzYzzy
RIP USA
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Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread
- Thread starter Araysar
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Because someone takes an idea and uses that idea, either in good intention or to his own advantage, doesn't make the implementation true to the idea.
I can sit here and call the USSR a communist state because America said it was. Because even Lenin and the Bolsheviks tried to make it such, but that doesn't mean that it was real communism in any sense of the word.
Even Marx himself referred to this erroneous idea, and the USSR didn't even exist yet. The USSR, Maoist China was a form of state-sponsored capitalism, where the state and those close to it, were the abstract capitalist class.
I can sit here and call the USSR a communist state because America said it was. Because even Lenin and the Bolsheviks tried to make it such, but that doesn't mean that it was real communism in any sense of the word.
Even Marx himself referred to this erroneous idea, and the USSR didn't even exist yet. The USSR, Maoist China was a form of state-sponsored capitalism, where the state and those close to it, were the abstract capitalist class.
While we're spaming wiki links:
Left-wing uprisings against the Bolsheviks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Loser Araysar
Log Wizard
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I'm not sure how that's even a fair comparison. Catalonia did better than the rest of Spain which was embroiled in a Civil War while they stayed out?
hodj
Vox Populi Jihadi
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And yet, surprise, this caveat and special pleading doesn't apply to ANY mistakes capitalism makes.
So you know, just because Foxconn happens to drive its employees to suicide isn't really a condemnation of all of capitalism either, then.
Annnnnd this is why this argument is stupid and bad and you should both feel bad for falling back on literally the most regurgitated and refuted argument by communists on the internet.
Loser Araysar
Log Wizard
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Isnt that really the point? That the actual intentions of what "real" communism are always get sidetracked by human ambition and lust for power? That this isn't some sort of unexpected bug in the system, its actually one of the unpleasant features?
Erronius
<WoW Guild Officer>
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I've been in this thread for less than 5 minutes and already I see you being an apologist to Communist regimes.
Well that's retarded because Catalonia was crushed militarily IN SPITE of the fact that it had higher war productivity than the rest of Spain. The only reason it was crushed militarily was because it was small. So it's not at all "a pretty strong argument." It's an idiotic argument.
Loser Araysar
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Yeah, you can basically use that to excuse all excesses of capitalism.
Hey, companies arent supposed to pollute rivers and exploit workers because that's bad publicity and bad employee morale! Who would want that, right? That's how the capitalist system self corrects itself!
hodj
Vox Populi Jihadi
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I hear Hitler was a really good guy at heart, it was just the implementation of fascist ideas that fell short.
I mean just because someone calls themselves a racist and writes a book detailing how they plan to wipe out an entire group of people as soon as they get power, doesn't mean the IDEAS behind Mein Kampf are flawed.
Just their implementation.
I mean just because someone calls themselves a racist and writes a book detailing how they plan to wipe out an entire group of people as soon as they get power, doesn't mean the IDEAS behind Mein Kampf are flawed.
Just their implementation.
It depends on the type of capitalism you're talking about. We don't have free-market capitalism in the US by any stretch.
We have an oligarchical business class propped up by government that allows them to bend and break rules as they see fit, to exploit entire nations under euphemisms like globalization.
We have an oligarchical business class propped up by government that allows them to bend and break rules as they see fit, to exploit entire nations under euphemisms like globalization.
Loser Araysar
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Why would you exclude size as a criteria? Maybe communism cant work in large states, see China, USSR, etc.
hodj
Vox Populi Jihadi
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Line em up and I'll just keep on knockin' em down.Dumar isn't enough, BRING IN TANOOMBA!
At a very basic level, the USSR and Maoist China weren't communist. They werecommunistic in some respectsof what they tried to do, certainly. Just as our current economic system has some socialistic policy.
But make no mistake, and even in the words of Marx himself, a socioeconomic system that has a massive government that people close to it benefit from is in fact a flavor of capitalism, where the state is the abstract capitalist, and the people close it profit from that association.
Exploitation doesn't require capitalists to be an actual person or persons. It can even be an abstract thing that is used as proxy to extract and exploit, like 'The State'. It's the same thing, just a different flavor of capitalist ice cream.
But make no mistake, and even in the words of Marx himself, a socioeconomic system that has a massive government that people close to it benefit from is in fact a flavor of capitalism, where the state is the abstract capitalist, and the people close it profit from that association.
Exploitation doesn't require capitalists to be an actual person or persons. It can even be an abstract thing that is used as proxy to extract and exploit, like 'The State'. It's the same thing, just a different flavor of capitalist ice cream.
Jesus Christ dude. It would only be special pleading if he were extending courtesies to communism that he weren't to capitalism. But of course, capitalism doesn't have any intentionality (because its theory arose in a descriptive rather than prescriptive manner) and so, once again the two things are different along the vector where they are being treated differently and therefore the term "special pleading" is fucking moronic.
Explain how Foxconn employees throwing themselves off of buildings could rationally be described as merely poorly implemented capitalism. Do you think that we'd be getting consumer electronics at the price we do under (not really) capitalism in the West without this sort of human misery?
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