Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread

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hodj

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It's not a fallacy when the "scotsman" is from new zealand. You can use the word "clearly" all you want but you're closing your eyes to the fact that all of the capital relations those so-called collectivization efforts seek to end are still there because, again, nationalization is not socialization.
Since they didn't succeed in making the transition, they weren't really communist, thus you can't consider it a communist failure.

Well my rocketship didn't succeed in making it to orbit, therefore it wasn't really an interstellar rocketship, therefore there was no rocket failure.
 
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We dont sit here and argue that the exploitative aspects of capitalism are not really representative of capitalism and that TRUE CAPITALISM is an amazing self regulated ecosystem with no waste and no excesses and no exploitation.
Yeah but you DO insist that if you're going to call a system capitalist it have at least certain basic features like say...markets, right?
 

Dumar_sl

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Dumar,

You're just repeating the No True Scotsman fallacy. Mao and the Great leap Forward were clearly a large scale collectivization effort that underpinned the establishment of a Communist society.

You claim that it wasn't a true communist society and that's fine. But that's also the real point. Your optimal communist society can't exist of the inherent flaws in that philosophy. The outcome of a communist transformation looking like USSR, North Korea or China isn't an aberration, its the inevitable outcome.
Not as flaws in the philosophy, but as modern society exists as modern society. Mao's and others attempted realization at those ideals producedanoutcome as society exists today, and not a good one. That has no bearing on it as an idea, or that idea being realized at some point in history.

And again, communism is not about equality of wages, of income, it's not about redistribution, or collectivization, because even that word even implies some form of ownership by society. None of these, not of those attempts, have even come close to what is the essential and key property of any true communist society: the abolition of a man's labor used by another man.

You want to argue that Mao is communist, cool: whatever definition suits your fancy for a communist, apply away. But their realizations don't reflect what the original intent was as defined by Marx in the Paris Manuscripts.
 

Loser Araysar

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Exactly. They want to claim that these large scale attempts to collectivize and literally make Marx's theories come true aren't really communism because they failed.

Its the type of intellectual dishonesty that really rabid religious people engage in when confronted with facts about things like evolution that are inconvenient to their world view.

These guys are literally Communist Lumies. That's what they are.

I call them Lummunists
 

hodj

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You want to argue that Mao is communist, cool: whatever definition suits your fancy for a communist, apply away. But their realizations don't reflect what the original intent was as defined by Marx in the Paris Manuscripts.
No Christian actually lives a Christ like life so Christianity doesn't exist.

Someone call the Pope and let him know he doesn't have a job anymore.
 

Loser Araysar

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Not as flaws in the philosophy, but as modern society exists as modern society. Mao's and others attempted realization at those ideals producedanoutcome as society exists today, and not a good one. That has no bearing on it as an idea, or that idea being realized at some point in history.

And again, communism is not about equality of wages, of income, it's not about redistribution, or collectivization, because even that word even implies some form of ownership by society. None of these, not of those attempts, have even come close to what is the essential and key property of any true communist society: the abolition of a man's labor used by another man.

You want to argue that Mao is communist, cool: whatever definition suits your fancy for a communist, apply away. But their realizations don't reflect what the original intent was as defined by Marx in the Paris Manuscripts.
In a way you're presenting it then it truly can be achieved only in some Star Trek utopia where energy is unlimited and so are resources. Where no one wants for anything. Homes are powered by free energy, household items, food and dildoes are created by Replicator andc division of labor is unnecessary. People pursue whatever they fucking feel like, which is anything but work because I honestly never heard anyone say - hey I'm gonna go do a bunch of repetitive bullshit for 8 hours.
 

hodj

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Man I guess the Crusades as a crime are just lifted right off Christianities' shoulders by this logic, too, now that I think about it. I mean, all those raping pillaging Christians were mostly definitely not living by Jesus' standards, so I guess Christianity didn't cause the Crusades either.

Hell man I may have to just keep going back in time to absolve people of crimes with this logic.

Well the Pharoah wasn't really a god because he died, so I guess that absolves him of enslaving his citizens to build him giant tombs at the expense of their lives and labor.

Holy shit this is great.

Well the Mongols didn't really live Confuscian lives, so they're kind of absolved of everything they did, since they invaded and conquered China, and then didn't live up to Chinese cultural ideals.

Its like a get out of jail free card for basically anyone.

Thanks Communism!
 

Loser Araysar

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So who's making dildoes for 8 hours in our new Communist society? Dumar or Bakunin?

Oh what? You dont like your assignment?
 

Dumar_sl

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In a way you're presenting it then it truly can be achieved only in some Star Trek utopia where energy is unlimited and so are resources. Where no one wants for anything. Homes are powered by free energy, household items, food and dildoes are created by Replicator andc division of labor is unnecessary. People pursue whatever they fucking feel like, which is anything but work because I honestly never heard anyone say - hey I'm gonna go do a bunch of repetitive bullshit for 8 hours.
I don't know the answer to your question. Maybe it requires infinite or near infinite resources. Maybe it just requires a society that isn't completely insane? I can't answer you with regards to what it takes to work. I just can tell you what's been done so far, good intentions or otherwise, is not close in terms of the idea.

The whole idea is centered around man's labor and the emancipation of it, which I've said a million times. How does Maoism and Stalinism free the labor of man? It doesn't, and it's closer in implementation to capitalism because someone else almost wholly exploits and benefits from it.
 

Loser Araysar

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Lets work with some examples.

I want a boat. A nice one. Like a 40 footer.

Can I just go to the store in Perfect Communism Land and pick one up?
 

hodj

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Maybe it just requires a society that isn't completely insane?
Why is our society insane, but the Aztecs lopping out hearts to get the Sun to rise isn't?

The whole idea is centered around man's labor and the emancipation of it, which I've said a million times. How does Maoism and Stalinism free the labor of man? It doesn't, and it's closer in implementation to capitalism because someone else almost wholly exploits and benefits from it.
Their results didn't match their intentions. Thats a pretty big flaw with your theory. Like if I set up an experiment, and I have my null hypothesis set to "Remove capital create perfect utopian society: and I remove capital, and end up with 200 million dead people, you know, I might just have to conclude that my null hypothesis was rejected by the experimental results.
 

TheBeagle

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Let me see if I have the gist of the two arguments.

First of all, it seems HodjCo and Team Commie are arguing a side of two different topics rather than both sides of one topic, but since it's Hodj and Mik it turns into 8 pages of fallacy definitions and accusations, lol.

HodjCo argue that communism has failed miserably because every time a political system that has been enacted under the banner of communism it has failed and that its just not possible in the real world because there are too many shitheads that can't play nice.

Team Commie argues that communism hasn't every existed in the form that was actually advocated in the theories or whatever because it gets messed up by shitheads. Team Commie even acknowledges that the purest form of communism probably can't exist on this planet as it is presently constructed.

Technically both arguments are correct no?
 
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In a way you're presenting it then it truly can be achieved only in some Star Trek utopia where energy is unlimited and so are resources. Where no one wants for anything. Homes are powered by free energy, household items, food and dildoes are created by Replicator andc division of labor is unnecessary. People pursue whatever they fucking feel like, which is anything but work because I honestly never heard anyone say - hey I'm gonna go do a bunch of repetitive bullshit for 8 hours.
There's a lot of options to deal with this. For one thing, a lot of the "work" under capitalism is just flat out waste. It just doesn't need to be done at all. For work that does need to be done but is undesirable, there's a lot of motivation to be gained from putting control over the means of that work directly in the hands of the people doing it (since then they're at least laboring for themselves). Additionally, it would be pretty easy to re-balance a lot of firms in such a way that jobs which involve exclusively menial work are spread out rather than having some people who exclusively do that kind of work and others who do nothing but executive (or whatever your notion of empowering work is) type of work.
 

Loser Araysar

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There's a lot of options to deal with this. For one thing, a lot of the "work" under capitalism is just flat out waste. It just doesn't need to be done at all. For work that does need to be done but is undesirable, there's a lot of motivation to be gained from putting control over the means of that work directly in the hands of the people doing it (since then they're at least laboring for themselves). Additionally, it would be pretty easy to re-balance a lot of firms in such a way that jobs which involve exclusively menial work are spread out rather than having some people who exclusively do that kind of work and others who do nothing but executive (or whatever your notion of empowering work is) type of work.
What kind of work under capitalism is waste?
 

Dumar_sl

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Why is our society insane, but the Aztecs lopping out hearts to get the Sun to rise isn't?
Oh they were, but for different reasons.

Their results didn't match their intentions. Thats a pretty big flaw with your theory. Like if I set up an experiment, and I have my null hypothesis set to "Remove capital create perfect utopian society: and I remove capital, and end up with 200 million dead people, you know, I might just have to conclude that my null hypothesis was rejected by the experimental results.
I should remind you to remember well the dangers of positivism, especially in social theory.
 

Loser Araysar

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I would say yes, depending on the general level of prosperity in Perfect Communism Land.
Ok, so I have a boat. But I live in a country the size of US with 310,000,000 people. Does that mean there are 310,000,000 boats available for pick up for everyone?
 

Dumar_sl

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What kind of work under capitalism is waste?
My bros say hi.

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