Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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TheBeagle_sl said:
But then the inevitable counter-argument to that is what difference does it make being owners of the dildo factory unless there was some sort of capital involved so they could turn those dildos into a forty foot boat.
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The difference it makes is they're not paying some prick tribute to access his dildo making gear and they get to make decisions about how much their work is worth which means they might even be able to save up enough for that 40 foot boat.
 
Araysar

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TheBeagle_sl said:
Ya, but the point I think Marxists would make would be that if those people making the dildos weren't working for the man, but were instead working for themselves because the factory was owned by the workers running it, that would be their motivation for boxing up dildos eight hours a day.

But then the inevitable counter-argument to that is what difference does it make being owners of the dildo factory unless there was some sort of capital involved so they could turn those dildos into a forty foot boat.
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What does it really mean to "work for yourself"? How is that measured? My understanding is that you just work hard and crank out 8 hours worth of dildoes and then you go to the pharmacy, clothes store, food store, or whatever else places are owned "collectively" and get from those people what you need by just walking in, taking it off the shelf, walking out.
 
hodj

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TheBeagle_sl said:
Ya, but the point I think Marxists would make would be that if those people making the dildos weren't working for the man, but were instead working for themselves because the factory was owned by the workers running it, that would be their motivation for boxing up dildos eight hours a day.

But then the inevitable counter-argument to that is what difference does it make being owners of the dildo factory unless there was some sort of capital involved so they could turn those dildos into a forty foot boat.
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Or just the idea that people working in that dildo factory at night aren't getting education to move out of that job into something they enjoy, or that maybe many of the workers there don't want to be involved in running the place, or that they don't want to end up feeling tied down to the place by being bought into it financially or whatever, none of this even occurs to them.

Like who the fuck even works in factories any more? Robots before long. There is literally no scientific field where people operate from an 1850s understanding of the field exclusively in the modern world. Not one. Not even actual academic Marxists, but here we are, pretending like factory labor is relevant at fucking all in 2013.

Maybe in fucking China. But they're already Communist. Oh wait.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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Araysar_sl said:
What does it really mean to "work for yourself"? How is that measured? My understanding is that you just work hard and crank out 8 hours worth of dildoes and then you go to the pharmacy, clothes store, food store, or whatever else places are owned "collectively" and get from those people what you need by just walking in, taking it off the shelf, walking out.
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Markets and socialism aren't incompatible.
 
TheBeagle

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Araysar_sl said:
What does it really mean to "work for yourself"? How is that measured? My understanding is that you just work hard and crank out 8 hours worth of dildoes and then you go to the pharmacy, clothes store, food store, or whatever else places are owned "collectively" and get from those people what you need by just walking in, taking it off the shelf, walking out.
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Ya and that's where it comes off the rails for me.
 
hodj

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Araysar_sl said:
What does it really mean to "work for yourself"? How is that measured? My understanding is that you just work hard and crank out 8 hours worth of dildoes and then you go to the pharmacy, clothes store, food store, or whatever else places are owned "collectively" and get from those people what you need by just walking in, taking it off the shelf, walking out.
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Read Barbara Demick's Nothing To Envy. It describes in very good detail how things were supposed to work, versus how they ended up working.

You would be assigned a task, the example in the book was the first hand account of a doctor and a schooteacher if I remember correctly. You would go to work each day, and at the end of the day you would get like a slip of paper or a chip that would show that you had done your work duty for that day. At the end of the month, or two weeks, whatever the system was, you could go down to the government office, turn in these slips or chips, whatever, that showed you had worked X days. Then you were given your families' allotment of rations/clothes/basic necessities for the next two weeks or a month, whatever. A bag of rice, what have you. And you had to make that shit last until the next ration cycle.

The problem was that the system couldn't meet demand, factories and other industries started closing down. Soon there wasn't enough supply to meet demand at all. Work chips started getting handed out every two days, or rations start getting smaller and smaller. Eventually, it all just dried up.

People were literally boiling bark off trees and grass and eating it. They wiped out the native frog population hunting them for food. There were no dogs left in North Korea (not a joke about Asians eating dogs).

The doctor, when she escaped North korea to China, actually sees a dog bowl full of food laying outside and doens't understand for a while that the food is there for an animal. When she figures it out, she says her thought was something along the lines of "They feed dogs better in China than we eat in North Korea".

Says it fucking all.
 
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TheBeagle_sl said:
Ya and that's where it comes off the rails for me.
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If that's the case then let me tell you what I would do. And I am a hardworking American who's regularly plowed 60-80 hours a week for the past 7 years.

I would do the bare minimum at the dildo factory and just go around and grab free shit elsewhere. I suspect I wouldnt be the only one.
 
Araysar

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hodj_sl said:
Read Barbara Demick's Nothing To Envy. It describes in very good detail how things were supposed to work, versus how they ended up working.

You would be assigned a task, the example in the book was the first hand account of a doctor and a schooteacher if I remember correctly. You would go to work each day, and at the end of the day you would get like a slip of paper or a chip that would show that you had done your work duty for that day. At the end of the month, or two weeks, whatever the system was, you could go down to the government office, turn in these slips or chips, whatever, that showed you had worked X days. Then you were given your families' allotment of rations/clothes/basic necessities for the next two weeks or a month, whatever. A bag of rice, what have you. And you had to make that shit last until the next ration cycle.

The problem was that the system couldn't meet demand, factories and other industries started closing down. Soon there wasn't enough supply to meet demand at all. Work chips started getting handed out every two days, or rations start getting smaller and smaller. Eventually, it all just dried up.

People were literally boiling bark off trees and grass and eating it. They wiped out the native frog population hunting them for food. There were no dogs left in North Korea (not a joke about Asians eating dogs).

The doctor, when she escaped North korea to China, actually sees a dog bowl full of food laying outside and doens't understand for a while that the food is there for an animal. When she figures it out, she says her thought was something along the lines of "They feed dogs better in China than we eat in North Korea".

Says it fucking all.
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What do you think about that, Mikhail?
 
TheBeagle

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
Don't let these dummies trick you. You can socialism and still have money and stores and shit.
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Lol, no ones tricking me bro. I'm all in favor of some more wonderful socialism mixed in with my mountain dews and Monday Night Raw. But you can't can't go all in with it, just like you can't go all in with capitalism. Never go full retard.
 
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