Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread

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Dumar_sl

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Lots of fields touch, that doesn't mean anything. I can quote you the leading sociologists and anthropologists if you wanna continue quotes from scifi writers.
 
hodj

hodj

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I can quote you the leadingMARXISTsociologists and anthropologists
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And if they're as stark blind raving mad as you, they aren't any more credible. Economists, people with doctorates in economics, do not feel that Surplus Labor Value theory accurately describes reality. There are one or two aspects of it they like, but the rest, particularly the simplistic model of how value is determined, are rejected and have been for decades. So you can go quote David Harvey all you want, it isn't a valid argument. He's not an economist, he's a fucking geographer for fuck's sake.
 
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Dumar_sl

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We're not talking exclusively economics here. This is a blend of economics, sociology, social philosophy, anthropology, and critical theory. It's not exclusive to one sphere.

Just so happens the leading sociologists and anthropologists are Marxian sociologists and anthropologists, imagine!
 
hodj

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We're not talking exclusively economics here.
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Yes, yes we are.

Just so happens the leading sociologists and anthropologists are Marxian sociologists and anthropologists,
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Look at all those appeals to authority.

Have any of them been able to show, quantitatively, that Marx's LTV is a valid theory?

The answer is no. Its a discredited theory. It doesn't matter how many people with phDs believe in a discredited theory, if its discredited by the mainstream thinkers in that field. Anthropologists...aren't economists. Most of them don't go past college algebra and a basic stats and logic class. I know, because I had to move outside of Anthropology to get any hard math and science outside of osteology and field research. Its not even close to comparable trying to claim a guy who has a geography degree and an BA in anthropology is a credible source on economics over someone likePaul Samuelson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediawho demonstrated that LTV is fundamentally flawed. You know.

The first American to win the Nobel Prize in economics, who was called by the Swedish Royal Academies as the man who has done more than any other contemporary economist to raise the level of scientific analysis in economic theory.

Fuck off with your appeals to authority bullshit. The CREDIBLE academics with DOCTORATES and DECADES of research in their fields reject Marxist LTV.
 
hodj

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A New Labor Theory of Value for Rational Planning Through Use of the Bourgeois Profit Rate

To maximaze steady-state per capita consumptions,goods should be valued at their "synchronized labor requirement costs", which are shown to deviate from Marx's schemata of "values" but to coincide with bourgeois prices calculated at dated labor requirements, marked-up by compound interest, at a profit or interest rate equal to the system's rate of exponential growth. With capitalists saving all their incomes for future profits, workers get all there is to get. Departures from such an exogenous, or endogenous, golden-rule state are the rule in history rather than the exception. In the case of exponential labor-augmenting change, it is shown that competitive prices will equal historically embodied labor content.
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hodj

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Just so people are aware, its not like Samuelson was some hard right winger either. Dude only helped popularize what is called theNeoclassical synthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, which is basically what the Republicans call "Keynesian Socialism" when Barack Obama does it.

Neoclassical synthesis is a postwar academic movement in economics that attempts to absorb the macroeconomic thought of John Maynard Keynes into the thought of neoclassical economics. Mainstream economics is largely dominated by the resulting synthesis, being largely Keynesian in macroeconomics and neoclassical in microeconomics.[1]

The theory was mainly developed by John Hicks, and popularized by the mathematical economist Paul Samuelson, who seems to have coined the term, and helped disseminate the "synthesis," partly through his technical writing and in his influential textbook, Economics.[2][3] The process began soon after the publication of Keynes' General Theory with the IS/LM model (investment saving-liquidity preference money supply) first presented by John Hicks in a 1937 article.[4]

It continued with adaptations of the supply and demand model of markets to Keynesian theory. It represents incentives and costs as playing a pervasive role in shaping decision making. An immediate example of this is the consumer theory of individual demand, which isolates how prices (as costs) and income affect quantity demanded.
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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TheBeagle_sl said:
My problem with that is, what if the people that come in to farm the land that you yourself can't handle and they don't know wtf they are doing?
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You can choose to work together and own the whole of the property collectively (and there's a million billion different systems for how to divide that ownership that don't run afoul of the no-exploitation rule).

TheBeagle_sl said:
It sounds inefficient as hell. An experienced farmer with a lifetime on that land employing wage laborers would get a hell of a lot more out of that land than 5 different hippy families that moved in from Portlandia. My middle ground would be the farmer gets to keep all his land, but stricter labor laws must be enacted to protect those laborers. But since those laborers are dirty mexicans, that's not gonna happen in my lifetime.
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Except the way things actually work currently is that you have one dipshit corporate "farmer" (or whatever the profession under consideration is) who knows the least making all the decisions (generally in terms of what's best just for them and only in the short run) and the people under him with the most hands-on experience (and knowledge) making none of the decisions.
 
iannis

iannis

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hodj_sl said:
This is the intellectual equivalent of Catholicism claiming that objects can hold evil powers over people.
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Dude. I have eaten some shit that held evil powers over me. For instance I've had two girlfriends that forbade me to eat cabbage after I cooked it for them -- this is what you call confirmation. One of them even called it evil, and I can't say she's entirely wrong. But I love me some stewed breaded cabbage.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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khalid_sl said:
Back to the communism subject, so Mikhails says I can still "have the farm" as long as I don't let it lie fallow and don't pay people to help me. Dumar says that private property should be abolished and it won't matter because at that point I won't care (and if I do, I'll be one of the oppressor 1% at that point and I guess should be killed). However, that violence wouldn't be communism's fault, but instead started by me defending my property.
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I'm not sure that Dumar actually disagrees. There is a question about what genuinely constitutes "your" property under the scheme I've mentioned (which in turn affects who is defending themselves from whom).

khalid_sl said:
So Dumar and Mikhail both conflict. Can I have a farm to call my own or not?
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That depends. Is it a farm you can farm on your own? If not, you can either own it collectively with others or you'll have to forfeit the portion you can't work on your own. "Have to forfeit" here means you won't have the power of the state to call on to enforce your claim to capital that you can't actually use without getting someone to agree to pay some form of usury.

khalid_sl said:
Also, neither of you have yet answered, what happens when Hodj's fucking asshole kids show up and start chopping down the black walnut trees I planted to build furniture.
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In my utopia? There's no government to stop you from using whatever force it took to protect your possessions and there exists a society that wouldn't try to stop you if you were actually acting in a justified manner.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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Trollface_sl said:
citation required.
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If a union had a factory of their own to work in where they didn't have to cut in some silver-spoon dipshit on a share of the product of their labor, exactly what proportion of the product of their labor would they voluntarily give over to him? The fact that people kinda sorta have an option of which silver-spoon dipshit to pay a tribute to in order to access the capital they need to survive in a market environment doesn't help you out of that predicament at all.
 
TrollfaceDeux

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
If a union had a factory of their own to work in where they didn't have to cut in some silver-spoon dipshit on a share of the product of their labor, exactly what proportion of the product of their labor would they voluntarily give over to him? The fact that people kinda sorta have an option of which silver-spoon dipshit to pay a tribute to in order to access the capital they need to survive in a market environment doesn't help you out of that predicament at all.
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they are free to leave and form their own factory.
 
TrollfaceDeux

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
If a union had a factory of their own to work in where they didn't have to cut in some silver-spoon dipshit on a share of the product of their labor, exactly what proportion of the product of their labor would they voluntarily give over to him? The fact that people kinda sorta have an option of which silver-spoon dipshit to pay a tribute to in order to access the capital they need to survive in a market environment doesn't help you out of that predicament at all.
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Workers, i believe, sign up to work. That is the voluntary stage. I think the stage you are talking about is what comes after that voluntarily conscription *wink wink* to work.
 
Araysar

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just got home after playing pool for 5 hours

im gonna walk down to burger king and score some whoppers and be a disgusting piece of shit for the rest of the day
 
Big Phoenix

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I just took a 20 minute shit. It didnt want to come out so I had to pray and keep pushing.

What a good brand of stool softener?
 
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