Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
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You don't need to sit in their design meetings to see where this is headed. Unless you believe game development is some mystical black box accessible only to the initiated. You can infer intent from decisions. If you leave meat on the floor, you don’t have to "conclude" dogs will show up. They just do.

It's not "jumping to conclusions" when the conclusions are the logical endpoint of the choices being made. It's forecasting based on precedent. If you repeatedly choose the ingredients for a tire fire, don't be shocked when someone notices the smoke before you strike the match. When every major system nods directly to EQ-era assumptions (forced grouping, travel friction, contested bosses, corpse retrieval, no instancing, no fast travel, no robust solo path, etc.) it's not like I have to be communicating with them telepathically to know where their heads are at.

And when people raise concerns, the answers we keep getting aren't solutions. It's responses like, "we have ideas", "trust the vision", "it worked before", and the age old classic "this game isn't for everyone." You can call that "jumping to conclusions" if it makes you feel better, but in game development (and business in general) silence isn't neutrality. If you leave a vacuum, people will fill it with what's observable.

Right now, what’s observable is: A nostalgia-heavy design ethos, a refusal to acknowledge how different the MMO market is in 2025, and zero visible systems that address known, predictable problems like poopsocking, low population fragmentation, or time-gated group bottlenecks. If the devs have something clever up their sleeve, great, show it. But until then, criticism isn't some kind of clairvoyance, it's just reacting to what's actually there.

Pretending concerns are invalid or leaping to some kind of conclusion because they weren't carved into a developer stone tablet is how every doomed niche MMO community talks before the post-mortem.

Sounds like you got it all figured out, when is your mmo releasing again so I can check it out? Because as far as I can tell this is the only thing on the horizon that is worth a shit. It may not be perfect but if I can pal around with friends and adventure it's a winner to me. If you're looking for something more modern I hear WoW now has a single button click to play your character now, maybe that'll be right up your alley. That should help alleviate some of your concerns since it's the only MMO really left standing anymore and it's a mere husk of it's former self.
 
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Drapdis

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Sounds like you got it all figured out, when is your mmo releasing again so I can check it out? Because as far as I can tell this is the only thing on the horizon that is worth a shit. It may not be perfect but if I can pal around with friends and adventure it's a winner to me. If you're looking for something more modern I hear WoW now has a single button click to play your character now, maybe that'll be right up your alley. That should help alleviate some of your concerns since it's the only MMO really left standing anymore and it's a mere husk of it's former self.
That guy is basically an npc. He has posted the same thing for months. Most likely schizophrenic or mentally disturbed in some way. He isn’t looking for something more modern, he is looking to argue that he is right about something thats impossible to be right about.
 
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Sythrak

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It’s also worth noting that at end game there are more haste items and mana regen options so it’s not as tilting that they have a lvl 20 mob with that stuff . I like the idea of contested content, but level locked and such good gear at those levels is big gay.

will be fun times getting the items to spawn raid mobs at end game, drama will definitely ensue in this game
It's just going to degenerate into 500 man guilds locking it down like it always does.
 

Valorath

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That guy is basically an npc. He has posted the same thing for months. Most likely schizophrenic or mentally disturbed in some way. He isn’t looking for something more modern, he is looking to argue that he is right about something thats impossible to be right about.
lol this guy joined a month ago and has only posted in this thread. Welcome to FoH, bro!

This forum has been around for 20+ years, and it started because people loved EverQuest. Imagine finding people mooning over that "feeling" here still. Shocking.

Argue mechanics and implementation all you want, that's what the forum is here for. Kirun makes great points, and channels his inner Lithose Lithose .

At the end of the day, these guys are going to make a game that they want to make - they’ve made that clear. Maybe they listen to posters here, maybe they don’t. Maybe they make a killer game that lasts for 20’yeara so we can all die together playing an EQ memberberries type game. Maybe they fail and their game is dead in 2027.

Either way, my team and I will get our moneys worth of enjoyment out of this, I’m certain.
 
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Drapdis

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lol this guy joined a month ago and has only posted in this thread. Welcome to FoH, bro!

This forum has been around for 20+ years, and it started because people loved EverQuest. Imagine finding people mooning over that "feeling" here still. Shocking.

Argue mechanics and implementation all you want, that's what the forum is here for. Kirun makes great points, and channels his inner Lithose Lithose .

At the end of the day, these guys are going to make a game that they want to make - they’ve made that clear. Maybe they listen to posters here, maybe they don’t. Maybe they make a killer game that lasts for 20’yeara so we can all die together playing an EQ memberberries type game. Maybe they fail and their game is dead in 2027.

Either way, my team and I will get our moneys worth of enjoyment out of this, I’m certain.
Brother I was around for when peoples browsers were being hijacked and used like bots or some shit, the entire site had to be remade, hoof shit. You really think I stumbled upon this website? I just wanted to post here. Hilarious you thought someone new posted or viewed this site. Settle down
 
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Kirun

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The classic MMO forum playbook - Step 1: someone points out structural issues. Step 2: instead of addressing a single point raised, you demand they build their own MMO. Step 3: accuse them of mental instability. Step 4: declare victory. Truly, the Socratic method thrives here.

Let's get a few things straight -

Nobody needs to ship a competing game to notice design pitfalls any more than you need to direct a film to know Cats was a disaster. Critique isn't invalid because it hurts your feelings. If anything, the fact that your only counterargument is "make your own MMO then!!" kind of proves you don't have one. So spare me the "where's YOUR MMO, huh??" routine. Nobody asked you to build a restaurant to know the food tastes like shit. That's not how critique works in any medium, ever. If the only valid opinion is, "I love it, don't question anything," congratulations, you're part of a cult.

And the funniest part? You all keep proving the exact point you think you're debunking: There is no defense of the design itself, only a defense of your feelings about the design. I've brought it up countless times because not one person has addressed:

1. How a 1999 retention model survives in 2025

2. How a group-only game functions with a niche population

3. How a no-instancing raiding ecosystem avoids collapse

4. How a subscription-only revenue model funds ongoing development (to be fair, people keep throwing out a "5K subs is all that's needed!" number with nothing concrete to back it up - so I guess that's at least something)

5. How ignoring modern player behavior magically produces "community"

You can screech "OPINION!!" until your dentures rattle, but these are objective realities in the MMO space. The fact that they trigger you doesn't make them less true.

And this idea that "it’s the only thing on the horizon worth a shit" is exactly why these discussions matter. When a niche project positions itself as the last bastion of old-school MMO design, it's not unreasonable to ask whether it actually understands the reasons those mechanics worked in 1999, or why they failed everywhere they've been revived since.

As for the "he’s an NPC, he's schizophrenic" stuff? Now we're just having meltdowns. If the best defense of MnM is to imply that anyone who questions design choices is mentally unwell, maybe the design choices aren't as bulletproof as you think. Forums exist to interrogate ideas. If your position can't withstand scrutiny, the problem isn't the scrutiny.

You keep insisting criticism = hatred because you can't articulate why these systems are good. Just that you remember liking them once, when you were younger, had fewer responsibilities, and the genre was new. That's called nostalgia.

If MnM turns out great, fantastic, I'd love to be wrong and I'll be the first person to admit it. But pretending valid concerns don't exist because it's "the only thing left worth a shit" isn't a defense, it's a confession that your standards have collapsed so far that anything even resembling EQ gets a free pass. And if that's the case, you obviously don't want a discussion, you just want to worship the shrine. And shrines don't make good MMOs.
 
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Drapdis

N00b
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The classic MMO forum playbook - Step 1: someone points out structural issues. Step 2: instead of addressing a single point raised, you demand they build their own MMO. Step 3: accuse them of mental instability. Step 4: declare victory. Truly, the Socratic method thrives here.

Let's get a few things straight -

Nobody needs to ship a competing game to notice design pitfalls any more than you need to direct a film to know Cats was a disaster. Critique isn't invalid because it hurts your feelings. If anything, the fact that your only counterargument is "make your own MMO then!!" kind of proves you don't have one. So spare me the "where's YOUR MMO, huh??" routine. Nobody asked you to build a restaurant to know the food tastes like shit. That's not how critique works in any medium, ever. If the only valid opinion is, "I love it, don't question anything," congratulations, you're part of a cult.

And the funniest part? You all keep proving the exact point you think you're debunking: There is no defense of the design itself, only a defense of your feelings about the design. I've brought it up countless times because not one person has addressed:

1. How a 1999 retention model survives in 2025

2. How a group-only game functions with a niche population

3. How a no-instancing raiding ecosystem avoids collapse

4. How a subscription-only revenue model funds ongoing development (to be fair, people keep throwing out a "5K subs is all that's needed!" number with nothing concrete to back it up - so I guess that's at least something)

5. How ignoring modern player behavior magically produces "community"

You can screech "OPINION!!" until your dentures rattle, but these are objective realities in the MMO space. The fact that they trigger you doesn't make them less true.

And this idea that "it’s the only thing on the horizon worth a shit" is exactly why these discussions matter. When a niche project positions itself as the last bastion of old-school MMO design, it's not unreasonable to ask whether it actually understands the reasons those mechanics worked in 1999, or why they failed everywhere they've been revived since.

As for the "he’s an NPC, he's schizophrenic" stuff? Now we're just having meltdowns. If the best defense of MnM is to imply that anyone who questions design choices is mentally unwell, maybe the design choices aren't as bulletproof as you think. Forums exist to interrogate ideas. If your position can't withstand scrutiny, the problem isn't the scrutiny.

You keep insisting criticism = hatred because you can't articulate why these systems are good. Just that you remember liking them once, when you were younger, had fewer responsibilities, and the genre was new. That's called nostalgia.

If MnM turns out great, fantastic, I'd love to be wrong and I'll be the first person to admit it. But pretending valid concerns don't exist because it's "the only thing left worth a shit" isn't a defense, it's a confession that your standards have collapsed so far that anything even resembling EQ gets a free pass. And if that's the case, you obviously don't want a discussion, you just want to worship the shrine. And shrines don't make good MMOs.
Dude what do you want people to say back to you? We don’t make the game. God damn lol.
 
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Kirun

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Dude what do you want people to say back to you? We don’t make the game. God damn lol.
A coherent counter-argument would be nice.

Nobody here is under the illusion that we make the game. The entire purpose of a discussion forum is to talk about design choices, implications, and outcomes. Especially when a project is still fluid enough that player feedback might matter. If the only acceptable response is "shut up and wait," then there's no point in having a forum at all. Just close the thread, slap a logo on the front page, and call it a day.

You don't have to agree with me, but pretending the only two options are blind enthusiasm or silence isn't a defense, it seems like an admission that you don't have a counterpoint. If somebody lays out concerns, the productive response isn't "why are you talking," it's why you think those concerns are wrong or irrelevant. If you believe the design direction makes sense, explain it. If you believe the market conditions don't matter, defend that. If you believe nostalgia is enough to overcome structural pitfalls, make the case.

But don't act confused about why someone is posting in a discussion thread. Especially when nobody else seems willing or able to address the substance. I don't need dev access to recognize patterns we've watched kill multiple MMOs over the past decades.

This isn't about "wanting people to say something back." It's about pointing out a trajectory, and seeing if anyone can provide a reason it won't end the way it always does. So far, that hasn't happened.
 

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
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A coherent counter-argument would be nice.

Nobody here is under the illusion that we make the game. The entire purpose of a discussion forum is to talk about design choices, implications, and outcomes. Especially when a project is still fluid enough that player feedback might matter. If the only acceptable response is "shut up and wait," then there's no point in having a forum at all. Just close the thread, slap a logo on the front page, and call it a day.

You don't have to agree with me, but pretending the only two options are blind enthusiasm or silence isn't a defense, it seems like an admission that you don't have a counterpoint. If somebody lays out concerns, the productive response isn't "why are you talking," it's why you think those concerns are wrong or irrelevant. If you believe the design direction makes sense, explain it. If you believe the market conditions don't matter, defend that. If you believe nostalgia is enough to overcome structural pitfalls, make the case.

But don't act confused about why someone is posting in a discussion thread. Especially when nobody else seems willing or able to address the substance. I don't need dev access to recognize patterns we've watched kill multiple MMOs over the past decades.

This isn't about "wanting people to say something back." It's about pointing out a trajectory, and seeing if anyone can provide a reason it won't end the way it always does. So far, that hasn't happened.

I dont have any counter arguments. The game is fun, immersive and challenging and thats all I care about.

We get that you are hung up on these things but its not an issue I'll likely be contending with. Im here for small group content with the boys. As long as they keep heading down that path I dont have any complaints.

Everything else is just speculation at this point.
 
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Pharone

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All I know is that my brother and I had a great time playing in the last play test, so what they have right now is something I enjoy. If that fits the mold of what someone else on here wants, who fucking knows and I don't honestly give two fucks.

The fucktards at DBG fucked EQ over and over and fucking over, so we ain't got many options right now. If MnM succeeds then awesome. If not, oh well. Life goes on.

I personally can't wait to read the crying in the forums over getting owned by someone in MnM. I'll take that all day, every day over another fucking pride pet, GM-supported plat farmers, and a few rehashed zones called an expansion.
 
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Brodhi

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A coherent counter-argument would be nice.
A counter argument to what, your entire post history here consists of variations of "You are dumb for thinking you like this, you really don't, you can't recapture that period of time, game will fail because no one really wants what they think they want, you all just don't get it"
 
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Quaid

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It doesn’t matter. They intend on contesting raid spawns and they are fully aware of the impacts of that decision. We’ll just have to see how they respond to the consequences.
 
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Flobee

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I don't think its unreasonable to rewind the genre, warts and all, to a time when the target audience enjoyed it the most and attempt to re-solve those same problems in a different way. In my mind thats what this project is. Its not that the issues being pointed out aren't legitimate, many of them are, its that I'd like to see a solution for those problems to be approached differently than just copying what the "modern" version of this genre has done. I think most of us agree that its become something we don't really enjoy. You can blame whatever you want for that but I think we generally agree here.

I completely reject the idea that game design in this space is a solved problem and there is only one solution.

Will this team be the one to figure it out and give us our drip as we enter the nursing home? Be cool if it was.
 
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Kirun

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A counter argument to what, your entire post history here consists of variations of "You are dumb for thinking you like this, you really don't, you can't recapture that period of time, game will fail because no one really wants what they think they want, you all just don't get it"
You're misrepresenting my position because it's easier than engaging with it.

I'm not telling anyone they're "dumb" for liking the game. I'm pointing out (repeatedly, because nobody has offered a counterpoint) that liking something and that thing being viable long-term are two entirely different questions. There are two discussions happening in this thread: "I enjoy MnM." Cool. Nobody is arguing you don't. "MnM's design choices will sustain a live MMO in 2026 and beyond." That's where the criticism lies. And that's the part nobody seems willing to debate.

I'm not telling you what you're allowed to enjoy. I'm pointing out that enjoyment doesn't magically negate design challenges, population realities, or sustainability problems. Pretending those issues don't exist because you personally don't care about them doesn't make them disappear, it just kicks the can down the road until they blow up later, like they have in every other nostalgia-driven MMO project. It's me posing the question, "What's different this time?"

If all you want is a vibes-based experience where "I like it" is the beginning and end of the analysis, that's fine. Just don't confuse that with an actual counter-argument. Because you're not defending the design, you're defending the feeling you associate with it. That's not the same thing. And if that's all anyone is willing to discuss, then yeah.. these threads will keep looping forever, because nobody's engaging with the reality of the genre or what it takes to keep a game alive once the honeymoon wears off.

I'm not trying to stop anyone from enjoying MnM. I'm asking whether the systems people claim to love can actually support a game past the honeymoon phase. If the only response is, "Shut up and let me like it," that kind of proves my point.
 

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
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I'm pretty sure this guy is a reddit mod, always trying to correct my thinking.

Godspeed on your arguments.
 
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moonarchia

The Scientific Shitlord
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I'm not telling anyone they're "dumb" for liking the game. I'm pointing out (repeatedly, because nobody has offered a counterpoint) that liking something and that thing being viable long-term are two entirely different questions. There are two discussions happening in this thread: "I enjoy MnM." Cool. Nobody is arguing you don't. "MnM's design choices will sustain a live MMO in 2026 and beyond." That's where the criticism lies. And that's the part nobody seems willing to debate.
Could be they are just tired of it since they already know the odds are heavily stacked against MnM as it currently stands. The cycle has been going on and on for a few decades now. Hypium -> Hopium -> Copium until something new comes along. Rinse and repeat.
 

Kirun

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For what it's worth, I'm not moderating anything, least of all people's worldview. I'm just pointing out that liking a thing doesn't magically shield it from criticism, and that saying "stop thinking about it" isn't an argument.

If someone saying, "Hey, here are potential problems with this design philosophy," feels like mind control to you, that's not on me. That's just you confusing discussion with indoctrination. The entire purpose of a forum is to exchange ideas, sometimes conflicting ones. If all you want is validation, you're in the wrong medium.

Nobody's telling you what you're allowed to enjoy. But if you're going to plant a flag in "This game is amazing because it reminds me of EQ," expect someone to push back with, "Nostalgia doesn't make systems good by default." That isn't correcting your thinking. It's just thinking.

If that feels like an attack, you might want to ask yourself why.
 
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Tol

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Brother I was around for when peoples browsers were being hijacked and used like bots or some shit, the entire site had to be remade, hoof shit. You really think I stumbled upon this website? I just wanted to post here. Hilarious you thought someone new posted or viewed this site. Settle down

When the great and terrible tyen-cat flew free