Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Pharone said:

I look at it the same way that Everquest handled raiding... ala there wasn't any until they added it later. I mean correct me if I am wrong here, but Nagafen and Vox did not exist day one in EQ. They were added later.

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Kirun said:

Afterlife had both dragons down by May, roughly two months after release

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Kirun said:

You're misremembering history a bit here.

Nagafen and Vox absolutely existed at launch in 1999. They were in SolB and Permafrost from day one. Afterlife had both dragons down by May, roughly two months after release and that was with almost no one having prior MMO experience, no raid templates, no Discord theorycrafting, no 25 years of accumulated genre knowledge. People were literally inventing the playbook in real time.

Fast forward to 2026 and we have twenty-plus years of encounter data, optimized leveling paths, damage modeling, resist breakpoints, spawn tracking tools, and entire cultures built around racing content. You can't compare "we'll add endgame later" today to "EQ figured it out as it went" in 1999. The environment is completely different. Raid content isn't just some optional garnish you sprinkle on after the entree is plated. In an MMO, it shapes progression pacing, class balance, itemization philosophy, guild structures, and long-term retention from the beginning. Even if 80% of players never raid, the mere existence of raid targets influences the entire ecosystem - economy, social hierarchy, aspirational goals, and server identity.

And to your point about not over-promising like Ashes, I agree. Don't sell castles in the sky. But there's a middle ground between wild Kickstarter fantasy and pretending endgame is something you can casually bolt on later. If the core loop is tuned around slow progression, heavy friction, and limited instancing, that directly impacts how endgame will function whether they "define it" now or not.

The genre has matured. Players consume content exponentially faster. Information spreads instantly. Pretending you can defer thinking about endgame until after launch is risky. And not because everyone demands raids on day one, but because the structural decisions you make now determine whether an endgame is even viable later. EQ shipped with aspirational targets immediately, and players devoured them within weeks despite having zero precedent. In 2026, with optimized players and modern expectations, assuming you have years to "figure it out later" feels less like prudence and more like wishful thinking.

EDIT: Looks like Quaid beat me to the raid target thing

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It's not like their core design sucks such massive dick that they can't add raid content to it.

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Kirun said:

You're misremembering history a bit here.

Nagafen and Vox absolutely existed at launch in 1999. They were in SolB and Permafrost from day one. Afterlife had both dragons down by May, roughly two months after release and that was with almost no one having prior MMO experience, no raid templates, no Discord theorycrafting, no 25 years of accumulated genre knowledge. People were literally inventing the playbook in real time.

Fast forward to 2026 and we have twenty-plus years of encounter data, optimized leveling paths, damage modeling, resist breakpoints, spawn tracking tools, and entire cultures built around racing content. You can't compare "we'll add endgame later" today to "EQ figured it out as it went" in 1999. The environment is completely different. Raid content isn't just some optional garnish you sprinkle on after the entree is plated. In an MMO, it shapes progression pacing, class balance, itemization philosophy, guild structures, and long-term retention from the beginning. Even if 80% of players never raid, the mere existence of raid targets influences the entire ecosystem - economy, social hierarchy, aspirational goals, and server identity.

And to your point about not over-promising like Ashes, I agree. Don't sell castles in the sky. But there's a middle ground between wild Kickstarter fantasy and pretending endgame is something you can casually bolt on later. If the core loop is tuned around slow progression, heavy friction, and limited instancing, that directly impacts how endgame will function whether they "define it" now or not.

The genre has matured. Players consume content exponentially faster. Information spreads instantly. Pretending you can defer thinking about endgame until after launch is risky. And not because everyone demands raids on day one, but because the structural decisions you make now determine whether an endgame is even viable later. EQ shipped with aspirational targets immediately, and players devoured them within weeks despite having zero precedent. In 2026, with optimized players and modern expectations, assuming you have years to "figure it out later" feels less like prudence and more like wishful thinking.

EDIT: Looks like Quaid beat me to the raid target thing

Click to expand...

Break said:

It would be interesting if a game could pull off keeping the price of sharing information high (you share, you get competition) and the value of shared information low at the same time. Like if every server had AI-generated worlds where sharing knowledge is often useless (server to server, cuz each server has it's own random seed) and even if you had high end strategic knowledge to share, why would you? That's essentially what 1999 was like.

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