Pathfinder 1e vs 2e

I've played quite a bit of Pathfinder 1e and have been GMing Pathfinder 2e almost non-stop since it came out. I'd say the main differences are that Pathfinder 1e is much better at being a "simulator" and Pathfinder 2e is better at being a "game."

1e has rules for everything, and gets really crunchy. There are precise rules for making any kind of jump you could imagine and very little ever has to be left up to GM discretion. The economy for mundane and magic items was meticulously written, to the point where entire campaigns can be run about being a simple merchant. That being said, game balance between classes is almost non-existent. Martials are strong in the early game and get completely eclipsed by spell casters in the late game, while Gunslingers are always insanely OP because, you know, guns in a fantasy setting. This tracks with being a good fantasy simulator but doesn't always lend itself to fun gameplay.

2e is less crunchy (though still much crunchier than D&D, in regular Pathfinder fashion), opting to be less precise about ultra-specific rules cases and instead focusing on the meat and potatoes of what it takes to play the game, leaving the GM to resolve niche cases where the rules are unclear. There are thousands of character options and an extremely flexible multiclass system which feels far less punishing than multiclassing in any other system I've played or ran, and all of these character options are very well balanced, to the point where only the most specific min-maxed builds are able to edge out over the average player. The system's math is extremely tight, making every single +1 and -1 matter, and even these bonuses have been condensed and simplified from the crazy amount of math from the previous edition. The system's three-action-combat mechanics give players more flexible combat turns that end up being pretty unique from battle to battle, helping to reduce the monotony of combat that plagues most TTRPGs.

Personally, I prefer 2e. It's also vastly easier to get into as there have only been about a year and a half of published content for it as opposed to the ten years of published content (and powercreep) that has been released for 1e. That being said, there has been so much packed into this year and a half that you will not have to worry about running out of things to do - we'll be getting four new classes this year (bringing the total to 20), at least 20 new multiclass archetypes (bringing the total to over 100), two new three-volume campaigns, one new six-volume campaign, a republishing of Kingmaker for 2e (including new content from the Kingmaker video game, as well as books for converting it to 1e or D&D 5e), a couple new (as of yet unannounced) standalone adventures, and multitudes of one-shot scenarios for the Pathfinder Society organized play (that can also be fit into campaigns outside of organized play). Not to mention several books on lore, including regions previously unwritten about in the Golarion setting.

Bumping this old ass post since I was looking into this recently. I was using the various a.i's to simulate a DM. and seeing how it went.

so, I don't really play the actual pnp, just the crpgs based on them. so there is always a step removed. but, I do look into the base games as well. Like, I play Wrath of the Righteous, and make a Witch, and then go see how that Witch would translate into pnp, with a different spell list, feats, etc.

Which led me into looking at first how 1e witches and 2e witches compared then deeper into 2e changes all around.

What a strange choice.. 1e exists because everyone rejected 4e. So, why the hell is pathfinder 2e.. just 4e but slightly different again? I have no idea why they keep trying to streamline it and make it more newbie friendly, instead of just addressing some of balance, and jank of 1e while keeping it crunchy and simulation focused that core audience wanted.


man they ruined Witches. 1e witches easily one of my favorites. 2e witches seem borderline unplayable.

Flavor.
1e witches are full arcane casters. with a patron that gives them arcane secrets, in the form of hexes and spells. the witch still actually casts them. and if the patron left, the witch would still have access.
the actual relationship with the patron is up to the player.
the witch bonds with a familiar, but controls the familiar.

2e witches are partial casters enslaved to their patron.
the patron gives them lessons. the player must beg the patron to cast the hexes for them. the patron owns the and controls the familiar.
Hex - Traits - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database "A hex is a spell caused by your patron’s direct attention and intervention." what person wants to play a pc that is the bitch of another creature and needs to beg it to cast spells for them?

1e. far more versatility in patrons. both from more choices of patrons, and the relationship with the patron as noted. you could be a witch that sold their soul to a demon, or a witch the studies demons to kill them. with the same patron and powerset.

1e hexes are... varied. a handle are massively OP. and the rest are total trash. but the ones that are good, slumber, evil eye,restless slumber, flight, so good.. also, they are spellike abilties, supernatural abilities, or extraordinary abilities. not spells. varied and that variance can matter at times.

2e hexes are cast by the patron. lame. and pretty much all shit.

1e.
evil eye. open to any witch. supernatural ability. -2 to AC,or skillchecks,or attacks, or saving throws pick one. can stack. mind effecting. can stack with other witches, can be cast for each type. upgrades to -4 at 8th level. 1 round duration on save, 3+int on fail. godlyhex.

2e.
only open to one patron. resentment. which is the only patron that isn't total shit.
sickened 1 on fail. sickened 2 on crit fail. what a piece of shit. now its open to sickened immunities. can't stack with other sickened conditions.

very few 2e hexes are any good. curse of death, cackle.

focus points. fuck you.
yes. 1e hexes being unlimited was kind of bonkers. but holyshit focus points go the complete other direction to being totally shit.
1 point per learned hex, max 3. then need to spend 10 minutes dicking around to regenerate 1 point. how retarded. that has to totally fuck up dungeon crawl pacing. having to stop and spend 10-30 minutes after ever encounter standing around. This is really lame. refocus should be10 minutes to restore all points, or just a 10min passive recharge per point. *hex focus feat allows refocus to recover all focus pooints.
yes, every class gets focus spells, but HEXES were core to 1e witches. THE main draw, not a side option.

Hexes+ familiar. the one saving grace. "hexes are total shit, because, when you cast them, your familiar does something special" absolute cope. but is true.

Familiar of Ongoing Misery
Your familiar seems hostile to all creatures other than you, hissing at them if they get too near. When you Cast or Sustain a hex, your familiar can curse a creature within 15 feet of it, prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round. This is a curse effect. This prolongs only conditions with a timed duration (such as “1 round” or “until the end of your next turn”) and doesn't prevent conditions from being removed by other means.

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yes. that is pretty good. ANY negative condition. not just the ones applied by you or the hex.


2e witches are ALL about their patrons and familiar. to their detriment. as already noted on patrons.
this is kind of true with familiar as well. 2e witch familiars become the main draw of the class. but they aren't REALLY better then before. the flavor that they aren't YOURS is bullshit.
they lose "share spells" as far as I can tell?
1e

Share Spells
The witch may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on herself. A witch may cast spells on her familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar‘s type (magical beast).

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2e familiars can swap around abilities. which is neat. and the ONLY actual buff...

Undying: If your familiar dies, your patron replaces it during your next daily preparations. The new familiar might be a duplicate or reincarnation of your former familiar or a new entity altogether, but it knows the same spells your former familiar knew regardless. Your familiar's death doesn't affect any spells you have already prepared.

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that is legit the only thing I consider an actual buff for the entire class.

Thank you for listening to my ted talk.

i been buying pathfinder second edition revised books. i mean to run a long running game set in a setting i had used previously for like a decade.

I like the cut of 2nd pathfinder's gib due to it having more complex (than 5th edition) rules and spells like pathfinder 1, but smoothing out some dndisms. it has a lot of subclasses now (unlike early on it had naturally). I havne't read each class thoroughly yet, i mean to at some point.

I was also a huge witch fan in 1st (defensive luck, cackle, misfortune, and various other fight manpulators were very fun). and i also hated the reliance on the familiar but then the intense loss of loosing the spells. it was always so absurd i would try to take subclass/archtypes that make the familiar not even a thing.

I really need to run a game or three to have a deep understanding of the mechanics.

and i need to sort out if i'm going to literally re-use the setting (which some of the players have played in), or if i'm going to make a new setting with the same sort of detailed world building techniques and notes. paralel, like a final fantasy game where ifrit may pop up in other places in other story elements. not certain yet. i got lots of books for it! i'm only missing about....2 of the revised 2nd bookss. i told myself i'd buy all the books for a game i like (i've been bbuyin all of pathfinder 2nd revised, and dark heresy malidiction). incase entertainment keeps getting more and more absurdly expensive i can paper game with the homies and my kids for free.

so currently i'm running dark heresy (malediction) every other saturday and at some point i'm gonna run pathfinder 2nd R, on sundays when i find a squad of savages who will play every sunday, for a lengthy game.

... said:

i been buying pathfinder second edition revised books. i mean to run a long running game set in a setting i had used previously for like a decade.

I like the cut of 2nd pathfinder's gib due to it having more complex (than 5th edition) rules and spells like pathfinder 1, but smoothing out some dndisms. it has a lot of subclasses now (unlike early on it had naturally). I havne't read each class thoroughly yet, i mean to at some point.

I was also a huge witch fan in 1st (defensive luck, cackle, misfortune, and various other fight manpulators were very fun). and i also hated the reliance on the familiar but then the intense loss of loosing the spells. it was always so absurd i would try to take subclass/archtypes that make the familiar not even a thing.

I really need to run a game or three to have a deep understanding of the mechanics.

and i need to sort out if i'm going to literally re-use the setting (which some of the players have played in), or if i'm going to make a new setting with the same sort of detailed world building techniques and notes. paralel, like a final fantasy game where ifrit may pop up in other places in other story elements. not certain yet. i got lots of books for it! i'm only missing about....2 of the revised 2nd bookss. i told myself i'd buy all the books for a game i like (i've been bbuyin all of pathfinder 2nd revised, and dark heresy malidiction). incase entertainment keeps getting more and more absurdly expensive i can paper game with the homies and my kids for free.

so currently i'm running dark heresy (malediction) every other saturday and at some point i'm gonna run pathfinder 2nd R, on sundays when i find a squad of savages who will play every sunday, for a lengthy game.

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Your interpretation of the power level of 2e Witch is completely incorrect and you have a tenuous grasp of the system at best. You really don't understand what you're talking about if you think 2e Witches are partial casters. They are definitionally full casters.

Kriptini said:

Your interpretation of the power level of 2e Witch is completely incorrect and you have a tenuous grasp of the system at best. You really don't understand what you're talking about if you think 2e Witches are partial casters. They are definitionally full casters.

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quote the other guy! i said i don't understand how the classes work because i haven't read them thoroughly yet!