Salary Negotiation

Zeste_foh

shitlord
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Cad said:
Guys in my high school used to ignore calls from Google because they were too busy while having over 5000 posts on an MMO forum all the time, it"s no big deal.
My posts are over 6000. 3000 to go.
 

Deathwing

<Bronze Donator>
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Etoille said:
Right. When I said recruiter I meant internal; not an agency.

To answer your question, no, it doesn"t change a damn thing about what I"m getting at.

It would have if you were being recruited by program side folks, not company people paid to troll LinkedIn.

You"re describing the normal cattle call process.

I didn"t even bother responding to google last month when I was contacted same method. If someone from the department side had contacted me I probably would have taken the call even if it was just to hear something interesting with the intent of shooting them down - if you"re from HR/recruiting I have zero interest in talking you if you"re my first contact with a company.

*shrug*

Only time I want to hear from HR is when the package the department/exec side pushed through is going to arrive at my door.
Cmon, you know better than this. I know you"ve worked your ass off, but you know there"s a lot of luck involved. And even with a good amount of both, people will rarely ever achieve the ability to turn down cold calls from Google. I think it"s a bit disingenuous to be giving advice from your situation for Zeste"s situation. For most people"s situation.

I actually just got a cold call via LinkedIn 3 months back. First time LinkedIn has ever done anything for me. The recruiter is on retainer with the company, so might as well be a regular employee. The past 6 months I have been getting cold calls from other contracting firms, and one previous manager, because Burlington is just plain tapped out on engineers(4 year old resume on CareerBuilder generated 2 calls).

Those I turn down, for obvious reasons. But if I turned down the guy from LinkedIn, I never would have found out about the job I"m moving to in a few weeks. 15% raise, cheaper area(Burlington VT -> Ithaca NY), much closer to all of my family, and a much smaller company(more on that in a bit). I haven"t really gotten unsolicited calls until recently, which I"m sure is more than just what I"ve done. And Google, I would have gone through it just for the fun of it.

A little side comment about smaller companies, which I definitely favor. I"m a computer engineer and I"ve worked at a huge company(IBM), a medium company trying to act huge(Allscripts), and a "small" company. The small company, where I"m currently employed, does almost all of its contracting with IBM, so it"s this weird dichotomy where I get some small company experience, but still a ton of the bullshit that comes with huge companies.

As an engineer, knowing everyone else at the company is great because the accountability goes way up. As others have mentioned, you can use that in so many different ways. Use that to show off to the boss, who is most likely the owner. Use it to make sure what you need from someone else actually gets done. Use it to feel good about company decisions because the owner takes the time to explain them in person. About the only thing I"m going to miss from IBM is the huge pool of load leveler servers that I can dump my code on.



P.S. Barrel Butt
 

AladainAF

Best Rabbit
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I"ve gotten 1-2 cold calls from LinkedIn. Nothing to write home about, but for the most part, Etoille"s advice is pretty off in my opinion.

And to the above post, I much prefer small companies run by good people (but very business conscious people at the same time). I work for one of the worlds largest software companies atm, and it"s less than stellar. I love it for the fact I get to work exclusively from home, and I do like what I do, but dealing with the red tape in a big company is horrible.
 
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AladainAF said:
I"ve gotten 1-2 cold calls from LinkedIn. Nothing to write home about, but for the most part, Etoille"s advice is pretty off in my opinion.

And to the above post, I much prefer small companies run by good people (but very business conscious people at the same time). I work for one of the worlds largest software companies atm, and it"s less than stellar. I love it for the fact I get to work exclusively from home, and I do like what I do, but dealing with the red tape in a big company is horrible.
The second paragraph of what you said is exactly what I said :p.
 
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Deathwing said:
Cmon, you know better than this. I know you"ve worked your ass off, but you know there"s a lot of luck involved. And even with a good amount of both, people will rarely ever achieve the ability to turn down cold calls from Google. I think it"s a bit disingenuous to be giving advice from your situation for Zeste"s situation. For most people"s situation.

I actually just got a cold call via LinkedIn 3 months back. First time LinkedIn has ever done anything for me. The recruiter is on retainer with the company, so might as well be a regular employee. The past 6 months I have been getting cold calls from other contracting firms, and one previous manager, because Burlington is just plain tapped out on engineers(4 year old resume on CareerBuilder generated 2 calls).

Those I turn down, for obvious reasons. But if I turned down the guy from LinkedIn, I never would have found out about the job I"m moving to in a few weeks. 15% raise, cheaper area(Burlington VT -> Ithaca NY), much closer to all of my family, and a much smaller company(more on that in a bit). I haven"t really gotten unsolicited calls until recently, which I"m sure is more than just what I"ve done. And Google, I would have gone through it just for the fun of it.

A little side comment about smaller companies, which I definitely favor. I"m a computer engineer and I"ve worked at a huge company(IBM), a medium company trying to act huge(Allscripts), and a "small" company. The small company, where I"m currently employed, does almost all of its contracting with IBM, so it"s this weird dichotomy where I get some small company experience, but still a ton of the bullshit that comes with huge companies.

As an engineer, knowing everyone else at the company is great because the accountability goes way up. As others have mentioned, you can use that in so many different ways. Use that to show off to the boss, who is most likely the owner. Use it to make sure what you need from someone else actually gets done. Use it to feel good about company decisions because the owner takes the time to explain them in person. About the only thing I"m going to miss from IBM is the huge pool of load leveler servers that I can dump my code on.



P.S. Barrel Butt
Oh come on. Guy comes here and is like "hay guyz three awesome companies are recruiting me what should I do" and I"m the showy asshole?

After a bunch of people tell him look its no big deal, he persists.


Look I"ll be the first to admit my situation isn"t broadly applicable. (Cad talking about being loser thinking they"re shit hot while having 5k plus posts on an internet message board was hilariously hypocritical btw) I thank god everyday that I was lucky enough to land where I"m at. No really. I do that. Where I"m at today is a combination of luck, tragedy, and hard work. There isn"t a day that goes by where my husband and I don"t go "jesus we are REALLY lucky to be where we"re at in life."

It has zero to do with big name companies and THAT is my point. That"s the point I keep trying to make. You can get to the situation I am in without working for an apple or IBM or oracle.

The focus should be on working hard and making a difference, not the company name.

PS - nyah!
 

Picasso3

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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If i want more money at my current employer should i take up interviews with other companies to try to throw the offers in their face or is that a dick move?

Been with the company a year.
 

Heavens_Myst_foh

shitlord
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Picasso said:
If i want more money at my current employer should i take up interviews with other companies to try to throw the offers in their face or is that a dick move?

Been with the company a year.
I"ll pay you in cookies if you come hang with me for a year in CHI
 

Falstaff

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I researched what the same position/similar positions offered at other companies by using contacts I had and used that information to negotiate a raise/promotion this year.

You can take interviews with other companies to see what they offer but yeah, it would probably be a dick move to "throw it in their face".
 

Zeste_foh

shitlord
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Take the best deal you have available. If you find a job that can offer you more, then you don"t bluff a deal, you have a legitimate reason to ask for a counteroffer, or to move somewhere else.

I don"t really get how people "bluff" their current job with the prospect of an offer. If your current job doesn"t" counteroffer, you have the new job to take regardless.
 

Oblio

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Picasso3

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I like where I am (coworkers and office) and I like what i do.

This is the first job i"ve had so i"m not sure how common that is.

The pay however is less than a state job where i"d presumably be doing 1/2 the work.
 

Frax_foh

shitlord
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Don"t expect them to give much of a shit if you tell them you can make more money elsewhere. Unless you are the sole reason a group/team/project/product is successful and management actually is aware of that fact, you are a replaceable cog that they can rehire at a lower rate if you bail.

Cynical outlook? Yep.
 
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Frax said:
Don"t expect them to give much of a shit if you tell them you can make more money elsewhere. Unless you are the sole reason a group/team/project/product is successful and management actually is aware of that fact, you are a replaceable cog that they can rehire at a lower rate if you bail.

Cynical outlook? Yep.
This isn"t cynical, its true.

It would be true even if it *wasn"t* a buyers market from the employers perspective (depending on what industry you"re in/what you do; I"m guessing that the fact that he"s making less in the private sector than he would at a state job that it"s not something where demand is high or the skill set is unique). And right now given the economy, its definitely a buyers market in most industries.

If you"re not a rockstar like Frax said why would they pay you more money? Its better to let you go somewhere else and over paid to just be average/better than average and hire another cheap guy to push whatever button you used to push.
 

Zeste_foh

shitlord
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Is your current wage fair, and does it give you means to live the quality of life you want, given that the wage is fair?

Employees are mostly replaceable cogs, but that"s a good thing. It means that if you can get a better deal somewhere else, you can easily fit in as a higher paid cog somewhere else, and possibly replace a disgruntled cog they just got rid of.

The interchangabilty of cogs works both ways.
 

CnCGOD_foh

shitlord
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Even if you really are replaceable, there is still a lot of cost to the comany.. What is a 15% raise going to hurt compared to the alternative? It costs a lot to replace you!

Recruiter Fees
Interview Time
Training
Relocation
Red Tape
Projects becoming late due to you leaving
Unknown quantity of any hire
etc.

Ive heard it is as high as 2 years salary in costs just to replace an experienced employee. If they turn you down for a raise its because they:

A) Want to eliminate people anyway
B) Think you will stay if they refuse (call your bluff)
C) Are short sighted in cost analysis
D) Think you suck at your job and are willing to eat the cost to get you out
E) Have some red tape bullshit which prevents them from giving out raises due to company polices etc.

Pick one, the weak labor market lowers the tolerance to bad employees but productive ones are still worth paying a bit more just to not have the costs associated with losing them.

I threatened to leave my current company early last year with an offer in hand but said I would prefer to stay if we could work something out. Had a 13% raise in writing within 2 days, they have policies to handle this shit but never tell you about it since they don"t want everyone doing it, heck I have felt more respected since doing this than before. Showing the backbone to ask for more when you actually deserve it can come off in a good light if you handle it respectfully.
 

Evelys_foh

shitlord
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So long as you"re polite about it, it never hurts to ask for a raise as long as you can make a valid case for it. If they don"t give it to you, get an offer in hand and go back. Let them know that you enjoy working there, and you don"t want to leave, but the increase in salary the offer would give is tempting. Give them the chance to match. If they can"t match it completely, see if they can make up the money difference in perks like an extra week of vacation, a company car, etc.

Alternately, see if you can get more responsibility or approval of a project that you"d like to work on. If the money you"re making is enough to do what you want to do, use the offer to get greater satisfaction if money is off the table for one reason or another. That"s a personal choice, however.

If your current employer can"t do anything about your pay at all and/or can"t accommodate your request for greater responsibility or approve a pet project, or simply refuses to, then you really do have to go. Staying after your raise is turned down with an offer in hand is basically telling the company that you don"t want to leave at all, and your future salary will suffer for it.

Also, don"t expect to be able to play this card that often unless you"re in an industry where the labor market is tight and competitive like Silicon Valley IT work. Once you do it, the general rule is that"s the only time you should do it until you"re in a new position or ~5 years, whichever comes first.
 

CnCGOD_foh

shitlord
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Evelys said:
Alternately, see if you can get more responsibility or approval of a project that you"d like to work on.
I ended up getting this as well for staying, got to ditch the support / maintenance work and move to a big Proof of Concept project in new tech. Makes things a lot more rewarding on a daily basis that is for sure.
 

Black_Death_foh

shitlord
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CnCGOD said:
I ended up getting this as well for staying, got to ditch the support / maintenance work and move to a big Proof of Concept project in new tech. Makes things a lot more rewarding on a daily basis that is for sure.
This worked for 6 months for me before I ended up leaving (software development). I was given a lead role on our mobile stuff and got to architect it from the ground up. After a few months though, I just couldn"t ignore the price I could fetch on the open market any longer.
 

kegkilla

The Big Mod
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Etoille said:
Right. When I said recruiter I meant internal; not an agency.

To answer your question, no, it doesn"t change a damn thing about what I"m getting at.

It would have if you were being recruited by program side folks, not company people paid to troll LinkedIn.

You"re describing the normal cattle call process.

I didn"t even bother responding to google last month when I was contacted same method. If someone from the department side had contacted me I probably would have taken the call even if it was just to hear something interesting with the intent of shooting them down - if you"re from HR/recruiting I have zero interest in talking you if you"re my first contact with a company.

*shrug*

Only time I want to hear from HR is when the package the department/exec side pushed through is going to arrive at my door.
I bet if the recruiter started the conversation with "FREE DONUTS FOR LIFE" you would have heard him out.