Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

Merrith

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IIRC my Star Wars physics right - for Rebel + Empire/FO ships only the massive ships carry a lightspeed engine, and the others actually hitch along with the big guy

Yeah, no this is totally wrong. Even in the OT you had fighters jumping to lightspeed with Luke in his X wing in Empire going to Dagobah, the Falcon's entire plot in Empire about being whether it's lightspeed is working or not, and all the fighters jumping in for the fight against 2nd Death Star in Jedi
 

Royal

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Yeah, no this is totally wrong. Even in the OT you had fighters jumping to lightspeed with Luke in his X wing in Empire going to Dagobah, the Falcon's entire plot in Empire about being whether it's lightspeed is working or not, and all the fighters jumping in for the fight against 2nd Death Star in Jedi

And we saw a Resistance shuttle using light speed in TLJ when Finn and Rose went to Canto Bight. This particular part of the movie just breaks down with minimal scrutiny and there's no getting around it. They wanted to keep the remnants of the Resistance in a holding pattern to set up that final battle when the smart (and obvious) play would have been to disperse at light speed, maybe even sending some empty shuttles as decoys in the process, and arrange a rendezvous.
 

Merrith

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And we saw a Resistance shuttle using light speed in TLJ when Finn and Rose went to Canto Bight. This particular part of the movie just breaks down with minimal scrutiny and there's no getting around it. They wanted to keep the remnants of the Resistance in a holding pattern to set up that final battle when the smart (and obvious) play would have been to disperse at light speed, maybe even sending some empty shuttles as decoys in the process, and arrange a rendezvous.

Agreed. Also they wanted to get Finn onto Snoke's command ship so that he could be in same spot same time as Phasma for their fight...which they still wanted it to seem like Finn/Rose were about to bite it after BDT betrayed them, but used Laura Dern lightspeed sacrifice to somehow remove hundreds of soldiers from hangar where they were while miraculously leaving Finn/Rose/BB8/Phasma alive and well so they could do their thing (also, I'm sure, BDT for appearance in Episode IX)
 

Lithose

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Well I run from hot to cold on this one.

The parts that worked, for me, worked extremely well. But there are certainly some ugh moments. Like for so many others here, the Carrie Poppins bit. That was so poorly executed I don't know how it made through to the final edit. There are several others but like that one they tend to be moments. Some broader sorts of issues would be some of the characters, like BDT's. I didn't like his personalty quirks at all. Finn and Phasma continued on their trajectory of being oversold and underdelivered.

For the parts that worked I could write a long detailed summary but it would read an awful lot like the one @Qhue made a few pages back. I was struck in a lot of the same ways and had a lot of similar takeaways. It stirred up a few quotes in my mind as I was watching it.

"The line separating good and evil runs through every human heart" (though in the language of Star Wars it would read "light and dark"). We saw that struck out in broad relief in a few of the characters, but especially Luke. I get that Luke fans will likely come away from this thinking it an assassination of his character but that is something I have always seen in him, just never so finely realized as here. That darkness isn't limited to just anger, hatred and fear. It also includes despair. That ended up being the part of the internal darkness that Luke fell into. Despair is what sent his father down the path that he eventually walked as well (though he did pick up anger and hatred along the way). But it didn't send Luke to anything like those same places. In that I didn't see the Luke they presented as a failure of the character. Enough of the younger Luke was still there to ultimately pull him back. (And man that scene where R2 played the old Leia message put a big fuckin' lump in my throat and got me a little misty).

Admittedly it's easy to stir LOTR to my mind: "This is the hour of the Shire folk when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great." Rey Random. I've never been invested in Rey being descended from this or that person and the question of who she is was never that alluring to me. The amount of effort and attention that some poured into the question was always more fascinating to me than the question itself. So her being a "nobody" (if indeed she is, I don't think that was definitively answered) is perfectly acceptable to me. In fact it's preferable to a convoluted contrivance to make her the daughter or granddaughter of some notable.

I'm sure I'll have more as I chew on it for a while. And likely some additional bits I don't particularly like the flavor of.

As for Luke: When has despair ever been his issue before? Even when his friends were trapped, the emperor was sitting over him and his father was fighting him, he fought off despair and hoped. It was so uncharacteristic of him. Doing that to a character without us, as the audience, seeing the reason for the change didn't feel like an assassination--it felt like watching someone's dislike being poured into the character and it becoming cancerous. I mean, I genuinely would have guessed the person who wrote Luke did not like him as a character and wanted to completely warp the attributes that made him the character he was. Luke is literally "A new Hope"--his character is designed around hope. Hopefulness has always been a central theme to the character. I mean, he was so hopeful he was naive, its why Han always laughed at him, even when he was a full on Jedi. And while its certainly an interesting story to see how hope changes to despair--it is a story no? To just have it happen feels really awful for the character. How can I connect with a character that I can't fathom the reasoning behind?

I mean, sense a sliver of good in my dark side wielding father who killed my family, destroyed a planet, killed my mentor, and was actively killing my friends--and stake my LIFE, and the lives of everyone important to me on the slim HOPE that I can change the overwhelming darkness in him......Vs....Murdering an innocent child at my despair that he will grow up and possibly be bad because I have no hope of affecting the sliver of darkness in him.


Secondly, about Rey's parentage. I totally agree, a shire-folk story would be fantastic. But Rey is not a Hobbit. Rey is an Aragorn. The thing that made the shire-folk so amazing is they were innocently naive and inept. Portions of the first (And second) book was spent on them dealing with the fact that they were so woefully weak, and way out of their element--at every turn during their "first act" they needed to be saved and helped, from Gandalf, to the Strider, to Tom Bombadil, then on to the Fellowship (One of the themes is how vulnerable they are to Boromir's corruption because they rely on the strength of the people in the fellowship so much). They, themselves, mention how small and weak they are, they hold knives in their hand and realize they can't use them, they see the world and realize they don't know where to go, they are brushed aside as pathetic by enemies and hide behind the "Captains" of the world (Boromir and Aragorn--this was a scene in Moria, that line was specifically used). And this is literally why the Hobbits were the foil, its an unexpected strength, but that lack of expectation came from them literally being weak until they were molded by need.

And then....their mentor dies. They are taken or forced to leave, and you see all the little lessons they learned while they were helpless have made them stronger as they are tested on their own. It feels natural by the time they are stabbing Nazgul's, or fighting at the gates, or killing Shelob--these characters have genuinely earned their bravery and skills. They hid behind their teachers, they were tossed around and shown to be useless, and from those experiences got stronger.

Did Rey do any of that? Did she have a moment of doubt and pain where she realized how small she was, and was saved by someone else, and had a goal set to become better? Did she ever get tossed into a situation that was beyond her, and saw the greater world she had to master (The internal shift of a heroic journey?)...Or did she simply walk into most situations with the tools and abilities to overcome them, developed on her own? Rey doesn't feel like a shire-folk. She feels like a Captain of the world, she's more Aragorn being convinced he's a king, than a hobbit discovering the world they need to grow into. Throughout the whole first movie it genuinely does feel like Rey is remember the strength "in her blood"--why she's a knight/lord/king, like Aragorn, not the Hobbits. The whole first movie seems a lot more like Rey coming to grips with who she is, and her powers--rather than being forged into a hero.

Which is why Rey being from no-where doesn't work. If Rey had been made out in the first movie to be scared, and incompetent, and bewildered by the enormity of what she did not know, this movie, as Rey finds herself and solidifies what she needs to deal with that, would have been fantastic. Could have easily accepted she came from nowhere. But the entire first movie wasn't that...Which is why it felt like a twist for a twist's sake. Plot elements need to have consequences. Rey is a junker from nowhere, and can speak every language, fly starships as well as ace pilots, and defeat a dark knight in a saber fight, use every Jedi trick we know, and is genuinely amazing....How? Why? What has she gained on this hero's journey? The whole "Journey" seems more about convincing her of her nature , than her growing into a hero. And that kind of story line lends itself to the Aragorn's of fiction, discovering who she is and why she is needed, rather than what she can become and how that is needed.

It genuinely felt like it was from writers that couldn't stand to have "their baby" thought of in ways the story needed. Maybe I'm wrong, but this all didn't sit well with me at all. People were discussing Rey's parentage for a reason. It felt like the writers wanted to do a "what a twist" and play a little joke at the questions, without actually wondering why those questions were being asked--like what made people believe that. Which is why I think you'll find a ton of people walk out of this saying "it was a great movie and I feel unsatisfied". This movie on its own is great, but when you start to digest the characters, you realize how hollow it all was.
 
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Chris

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I suppose that small ships doing lightspeed kamikaze would bounce off the sheilds while large ships are too valuable to use that way, especially for the rebellion's limited resources, while the empire have other doomsday weapons. It's a legit tactic though which should be explored.

All the Rey/Kylo/Snoke/Luke stuff was amazing. Snoke's CGI was perfect (unlike last film). It wasn't satisfying though, needed a twist or Rey joining Kylo.

All the Finn stuff was prequel tier and added nothing to the story, you can edit him out and change nothing. Was a waste of time in a film which was too long, keep him in the coma.

Is nobody else hating on admiral SJW? Fucking purple hair, got everyone killed and antagonised Poe for feminism.

Also I felt like Snoke's Star Destroyer exploding was the finale, then the film carried on for another half an hour...
 
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Valishar

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About Rey
A girl from nowhere special, born to nobody in particular, is called by a higher power to fight a war she has no real business being in. Fighting trained killers with little to no training herself.

That's Joan of Arc right there.

In 'popular legend' she is storming the gates of Orleans sword in hand. The historical reality of this isn't really important to a work of fiction.

Probably the allegory doesn't go any farther than that. But it's kind of interesting.
 
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Muligan

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The more I think about the Casino planet the more I felt my distaste for it comes from the fact it looks like a direct copy from Fantastic Beasts. Felt more like the Jazz club from FBAWTFT rather than the Cantina. I think if it would have featured a Hutt or two in addition to it just being a new planet, that would have made it much better. I was looking for them to crash through the Bank at Gringots at any frame.

Going to watch it again this weekend or early next week. I've been reading the second time around is better so we shall see. I'm still in the 7.5 - 8.5 / 10 after digesting everything.
 
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khorum

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The more I think about the Casino planet the more I felt my distaste for it comes from the fact it looks like a direct copy from Fantastic Beasts. Felt more like the Jazz club from FBAWTFT rather than the Cantina. I think if it would have featured a Hutt or two in addition to it just being a new planet, that would have made it much better. I was looking for them to crash through the Bank at Gringots at any frame.

Going to watch it again this weekend or early next week. I've been reading the second time around is better so we shall see. I'm still in the 7.5 - 8.5 / 10 after digesting everything.
I got it at 9/10 but I doubt it would nudge up after a second viewing. Gonna see it in 3D tomorrow though so it's possible.

I enjoyed the Canto Bight scenes for the framing devices they were meant to be and I didn't go in there expecting a "grown-up" installment to Star Wars. I expected a Star Wars movie and I got a great one.
 
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Khalan

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Overall i still liked it as I am a huge SW fan, but definitely wary walking into 9 that JJ can finish it properly and wrap up all the odd ends.
 
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Vaclav

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Yeah, no this is totally wrong. Even in the OT you had fighters jumping to lightspeed with Luke in his X wing in Empire going to Dagobah, the Falcon's entire plot in Empire about being whether it's lightspeed is working or not, and all the fighters jumping in for the fight against 2nd Death Star in Jedi

I didn't mean X-Wings/A-Wings/Y-Wings - I know those are jump capable (giant nacels on the outsides) - I meant stuff like the Bacta Medical Ships and shit - those only really appeared in OT during ROTJ and they were already in place, but I thought the extra SW resources discussed them as "hitching along" with the capital ships for lightspeed, like how BSG did it with the extra convoy ships - but perhaps I'm getting old and memories off both are blurring
 

Urgoslav

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Is there enough new lore here to create a new KotoR level game like what came after the prequels?

Don't care if the movies are great, just that the byproducts are sweet sweet RPGs.
 
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Vaclav

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Overall i still liked it as I am a huge SW fan, but definitely wary walking into 9 that JJ can finish it properly and wrap up all the odd ends.

Doesn't seem that tough to me - really seems like they could wrap up stuff quickly...
Act 1 - Rebels/First Order conclusion - both are in tatters ending either could be done rapidly.
Act 2 - Character Personal stories conclusion - really most of them don't seem too uncovered, just specific details need to be fleshed out - unless Kylo was lying about Ren's parents that could extend Rey's personal story a bit
Act 3 - Future of the universe conclusion - obviously they'll want to drop breadcrumbs towards what direction 10-12 will go since it's an inevitability eventually
With some of each bleeding each direction a bit as they like to do
 

Vaclav

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There was a Nebulon-B medical frigate in ESB.

Was there? I thought it was all similar equipment but down in a ground base? Regardless, was there any examples of them jumping by their lonesome in OT?
 

GeneralF

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Wow you guys are criticizing all the wrong things.

They obviously hit all their targets,

Which is to show that diversity is strength, capitalism is evil and that women are absolutely amazing at doing all of the things. All the rest is filler and it's no wonder that they're high-fiving over this movie and gave a whole another trilogy to Rian Johnson.

I liked it for a modern Star Wars movie, 7/10. I liked the humor although I understand that it takes away from the serious moments.
 
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khorum

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Yep. It was in a fleet without the Mon Calamari capital ships so it must've jumped there without their help.