The Tanoubliette: Pussy Hurt and Delusions or TTPHAD for short.

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Mario Speedwagon

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Believing something is harmful and saying someone is designing a product so that the users of that product are "meant to" and "cannot help but" engage in that harmful behavior is absolutely an accusation of malicious intent.

I can already see I'm about to be dragged into an argument about the definitions of the words "accusation" and "malicious".
 

Lithose

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If someone believes cyanide is harmful, and puts it in a drink which he knows you cannot help but drink, that is malicious intent.


Well it is in the normal world. In Tanoomba's world that's just an allegory for cheese.
 

Soygen

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This argument has gone through the ringer like 20 times. Tanoomba is wrong. He's either too dumb to understand how English works or he's trolling/arguing just for fun. Either way, it's pointless for anyone else to engage him in anything even approaching a serious manner. "Chuckles" are about the maximum effort I can put forth.
 

Quaid

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Tee-hee! Nothing like a good chuckle, eh chums?

Now, are we done distracting from the fact that

Believing something is harmful =/= Accusation of malicious intent?
She straight up said the developers 'carefully concocted' a situation in which players would fetishize the dead bodies of sexualized women. One could conclude that intentionally presenting situations of extreme social taboo (necrophilia) for the sake of selling copies isn't the most noble of acts. She says players 'can't help' but interact with them in this way, implying that players are encouraged to do so, despite active disincentive by the game systems. She recognizes herself that these acts are negative, calling the pleasure these hypothetical players take in these supposedly intentionally created situations 'perverse'.

Sounds like accusations of malicious intent to me.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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This argument has gone through the ringer like 20 times. Tanoomba is wrong. He's either too dumb to understand how English works or he's trolling/arguing just for fun. Either way, it's pointless for anyone else to engage him in anything even approaching a serious manner. "Chuckles" are about the maximum effort I can put forth.
Sometimes you look at a drawer and you know you shouldn't put your dick in it. If you do, you absolutely know you should not slam that drawer closed on your dick. But you look at that drawer and you cannot help but do it. You are meant to do it. And you derive a perverse pleasure from it.

Just the way it is sometimes.
 

Tanoomba

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Doc: "Believing something is harmful and saying someone is designing a product so that the users of that product are "meant to" and "cannot help but" engage in that harmful behavior is absolutely an accusation of malicious intent.

I can already see I'm about to be dragged into an argument about the definitions of the words "accusation" and "malicious"."

Allowing or even encouraging harmful behavior is not malicious if the one doing the encouraging doesn't believe the behavior to be harmful. Anti-vaxxers may be doing harm, but they're doing harm through ignorance. They are not intentionally harming anyone (heck, they believe they are helping). Sarkeesian is trying to convince people that some content in video games can have a negative effect on how we perceive and treat women IRL, but she never even implied (much less stated) that this was a result of malicious intent on the developers' part.
 

Tanoomba

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Lith: "If someone believes cyanide is harmful, and puts it in a drink which he knows you cannot help but drink, that is malicious intent."

What if they don't believe it's harmful?
 

Tanoomba

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Quaid: "She straight up said the developers 'carefully concocted' a situation in which players would fetishize the dead bodies of sexualized women."

So? Developers have been "concocting" situations in which players savagely and brutally murder other people for years and years. Is this "malicious" on their part?




Quaid: "One could conclude that intentionally presenting situations of extreme social taboo (necrophilia) for the sake of selling copies isn't the most noble of acts."

Is brutal murder a "noble" act?




Quaid: "She says players 'can't help' but interact with them in this way, implying that players are encouraged to do so, despite active disincentive by the game systems. She recognizes herself that these acts are negative, calling the pleasure these hypothetical players take in these supposedly intentionally created situations 'perverse'."

Here's the line from the video you are referring to:
"The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon, because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose."

This is an objectively factual statement. Every NPC, every powerup, every obstacle, everything that can be in any way interacted with is a "thing to be acted upon". They were ALL "designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose". If they were not intended to be acted upon, you would not be able to interact with them. So the player cannot help but treat digital hookers as things to be acted upon in the same way they cannot help but treat digital vehicles as such, or digital cats, or digital police officers, or digital bottles on a bar... They are all placed in the environment to be acted upon. There is no value judgment on players here.

So why "perverse pleasure"?

Perverse: showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable, often in spite of the consequences

For the umpteenth time, gamers have made it crystal clear since at least GTA3 that they DO take perverse pleasure from killing hookers. The uninhibited glee on display in countless hooker-killing YouTube videos, along with gamer-created memes and, let's face it, common knowledge should be proof enough of this, but somehow none of the anti-Sarkeesian crowd ever seem able to acknowledge this point. Worse, as we have seen even on Rerolled, several will go out of their way to argue that this ISN'T the case, that hookers AREN'T the most popular non-aggressive NPC targets in GTA (next to random pedestrians, of course).





Quaid: "Sounds like accusations of malicious intent to me."

Not to me. Not to most developers we've heard from. Not to the majority of her audience who are actually interested in the topic and not just jumping to whatever conclusions allow the most righteous indignation. There is often more than one way to interpret something, which is fine. When one interpretation relies more on personal attacks to make its case than good-faith arguments that are backed up by facts, that's the side that's going to be seen as less valid by society at large. Sorry.
 

Tanoomba

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Oh, shit. Part 4 is all about GamerGate... (Gets popcorn)

Why Are You So Angry? Part 4: An Autopsy on GamerGate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6TrKkkVEhs
 

Quaid

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Why is any act carried out in a video game 'perverse'? What is unreasonable or unacceptable conduct in a situation in which an individual is only interacting with themselves?
 

Tanoomba

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Because, Quaid, it's something "taboo" that we wouldn't be allowed to do in real life. We get to engage in extremely anti-social (virtual) behavior with zero real-world consequences. The desire being tapped into, despite the action not having a direct real-world effect on another person, is based on real-world social values and expectations. Have you seen the video of seniors playing GTAV? The joy some of them exhibit when they realize they are able to gun down innocent pedestrians could easily be qualified as "perverse". They know they're doing something they're not "supposed to" do, and there's a visceral thrill in that. Just because we know digital actions are benign, it doesn't mean the desires being fulfilled when we act them out aren't themselves "perverse".
 

Tanoomba

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Which of his views on the portrayal of women in video games would you like me to start with?
 

fanaskin

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Which of his views on the portrayal of women in video games would you like me to start with?
he's just an extreme example of a scam artist, which is not isolated to woman or video games, but if you are going to accuse someone of believe someone is a scam artist you can't help but talk about them as people.
 

Tanoomba

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Fana: "he's just an extreme example of a scam artist, which is not isolated to woman or video games, but if you are going to accuse someone of believe someone is a scam artist you can't help but talk about them as people."

Sure, if you "believe" someone is a scam artist then yeah, you're going to say mean things about them as a person. Bernie Madoff is a convicted criminal. Being an actual scam artist, not a suspected or accused scam artist, is literally all we know about the guy. It would be hard to talk about him without referencing that. Sarkeesian is a pop critic who said some things you didn't like. The "scam artist" accusations are a joke. They were added onto the pile of ridiculous attacks leveled against her ("she stole footage", "she harassed herself", "HITMAN!!!!!", etc) by people desperate for anything, ANYTHING they could hold against her.

From Kickstarter's FAQ:

"What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?

If problems come up, creators are expected to post a project update explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.

It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator."

Posting project updates? Check.
Sharing the story? Check.
Good faith effort? Check.
Transparency? Check.
Patient and understanding backers? Check.

Now, I have no doubt that YOU, PERSONALLY, will find reason to doubt some of my "checks". Luckily, your opinion on it isn't worth shit, as it is entirely between Sarkeesian and her backers, the grand majority of which apparently seem to have no problem whatsoever. I have seen literally one person ask for a refund, and while I think Sark SHOULD give him back his money, she is not obligated to and I'm positive the attention and income he got from his YouTube video exceeds the 25$ he donated. There is no scam here. Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
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