The Tanoubliette: Pussy Hurt and Delusions or TTPHAD for short.

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Quaid

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chaos_sl said:
I played GTA quite a bit with a bunch of guys in the military. Everyone did it once or twice sure, not because of any rush but just because of how absurd the whole thing was. The objective of the hookers wasn't to kill them, it was to simulate sex with them in order to restore HP. As you do. This happens to be a game where you can kill people. Thus you can kill the hookers.

I played games with some rough dudes and I can't remember anyone singling out women or hookers specifically.

So Sarkeesian didn't say that gameplay possibilities are "implicitly encouraged"? (which no, it doesn't exist, encouragement is by its nature explicit) Sure sounds like the crux of the argument. A game has hookers. You can kill the hookers. Thus, the game encourages you to kill hookers. That's literally psycho.

I think you are vastly underplaying the complexity of game design. Anywhere else that might fly, but you're on a board where people have played hundreds, maybe thousands, of games and abused them to the point of insanity. To be here and say that developers go into every game with a clear picture of how they want players to interact with the world and then achieve that, that's just fantasy.

I don't see how you can say she didn't imply that it was intentional on the developers part. You're saying that developers don't have interactions in their games that weren't intended or encouraged, but at the same time saying they aren't intentionally including horrific prostitute murder mini-games as an exercise in virtual-interactive misogyny, but it definitely is misogyny on the part of the players to engage in these situations, and that developers know their audience, but that they don't support these concepts intentionally. That's some loopty-loop logic bro. Occam's razor tells me that it is much more likely that when developing sandbox games taking place in a criminal underworld setting, you are likely for players to have interactions that you didn't necessarily predict but also don't necessarily want to prohibit due to the governing design philosophy of open-world architecture.
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Interesting to note:

The first 22 full minutes of Hitman: Absolution are devoted to detailing exactly what will happen when you interact with an NPC in any conceivable way. The stripper NPCs aren't encountered until 2-3 hours into the game. By this time, with the ample assistance of the developers, the player should know exactly what will happen to NPCs when they act on them in the ways available to them. They've crossed paths with hundreds of NPCs at this point.

The players aren't being 'implicitly encouraged' to 'explore mechanics' that they know the outcome of multiple hours into the gameplay. I suppose an argument could be made that the developers 'implicitly encourage' one to leap Mario into a pit in world 1-1, but certainly not in 4-1.
 
khalid

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Khalid: "You claim to not care, but Anita clearly does and thinks it causes misogyny."
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Tanoomba_sl said:
Let me clarify: Anita doesn't care specifically about what goes into games, she cares about the real-world effect that game content can have on people. She believes the way women are portrayed in games can effect how people see and act towards women in real life.
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Holy shit dude, seriously?
 
khalid

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Khalid: "You claim to not care, but Anita clearly does and thinks it causes misogyny."

Citation needed. Just kidding, as if you'd ever back up something you said with facts! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Tanoomba_sl said:
Let me clarify: Anita doesn't care specifically about what goes into games, she cares about the real-world effect that game content can have on people. She believes the way women are portrayed in games can effect how people see and act towards women in real life.
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Holy shit dude, seriously?
 
Tanoomba

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Khaliar: "Holy shit dude, seriously?"

Yes, dude, seriously.

"Video games cause misogyny!" =/= "Some game content can have an effect on how women are perceived and treated in real life."

It's an obtuse and inaccurate oversimplification.

Are you ready to fess up yet?
 
khalid

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Khaliar: "Holy shit dude, seriously?"

Yes, dude, seriously.

"Video games cause misogyny!" =/= "Some game content can have an effect on how women are perceived and treated in real life."

It's an obtuse and inaccurate oversimplification.

Are you ready to fess up yet?
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I mean, I get it, you keep trying to play both sides of the fence here. The problem is, this results in you taking a pretty contradictory stance.

So yeah, at this stage I don't expect you to admit you are wrong, but everyone else sees how utterly inconsistent your position is on this.
 
Lithose

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Khalid: "You claim to not care, but Anita clearly does and thinks it causes misogyny."

Tan: Citation needed. Just kidding, as if you'd ever back up something you said with facts! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Is Tan...Is tan really saying Anita doesn't think media has an effect on people? Is he? Like that was the whole point of her video...she literally says it at the end of Hitman.
 
khalid

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Lithose_sl said:
Is Tan...Is tan really saying Anita doesn't think media has an effect on people? Is he? Like that was the whole point of her video...she literally says it at the end of Hitman.
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I feel like this is one of those moments, like the moon landing admission, that really shines a light into how utterly worthless it is to discuss something with him.
 
Tanoomba

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Khaliar: "I mean, I get it, you keep trying to play both sides of the fence here. The problem is, this results in you taking a pretty contradictory stance.
So yeah, at this stage I don't expect you to admit you are wrong, but everyone else sees how utterly inconsistent your position is on this."

How am I playing both sides of the fence? My stance is, and has always been, to take Sarkeesian's message as her own words describe it. Where's the contradiction?

Taking a contradictory stance would be assuming someone is unwilling to admit they were wrong when the thing he caught YOU lying about was him admitting he was wrong. Come on, we JUST went over this. Oh, that's right, you're still pretending that didn't happen.




Lith: "Is Tan...Is tan really saying Anita doesn't think media has an effect on people? Is he? Like that was the whole point of her video...she literally says it at the end of Hitman."

Let me clarify: Yes, Anita cares. No, she does not think games "cause misogyny". Yes, she think media has an effect on how people perceive and act towards people around them.
 
Tanoomba

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Khaliar: "I feel like this is one of those moments, like the moon landing admission, that really shines a light into how utterly worthless it is to discuss something with him."

He says, as his hypocrisy level reaches OVER 9000!!!
 
hodj

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You know who else was concerned about video games' effects on people?

Jack Thompson.
 
Lithose

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khalid_sl said:
I feel like this is one of those moments, like the moon landing admission, that really shines a light into how utterly worthless it is to discuss something with him.
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Gah, I can't even...how...how does one's internal logic allow this?


Tanoomba_sl said:
Lith: "Is Tan...Is tan really saying Anita doesn't think media has an effect on people? Is he? Like that was the whole point of her video...she literally says it at the end of Hitman."

Let me clarify: Yes, Anita cares. No, she does not think games "cause misogyny". Yes, she think media has an effect on how people perceive and act towards people around them.
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Come on Tan, just admit you're trolling.
 
Mario Speedwagon

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Anita's whole premise for this video series and its importance is that the treatment of women in video games effects how people think and behave towards women in real life. Mainly, that the misogynistic portrayals of women in media leads to the proliferation of misogynistic attitudes in the real world. This is literally THE reason she makes these videos.

Tan has now backed himself into a corner so badly that he's forced to acknowledge that she believes this while at the same time doesn't believe that "games cause misogyny". Clearly fucking trolling at this point and will take absolutely any position necessary to continue an argument. I can see what he's trying to do here. He's going to play yet another one of his bullshit semantic games and try to spend a couple thousand words explaining how influencing actions and attitudes with misogynistic ideas is totes different from "causing misogyny".

My response to this game he's about to try and play:
 
khalid

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I mean, he has been trying to hold both those positions for awhile without sounding ridiculous, but it is alot harder to overlook the absurdity when he managed to both ask for a citation and give that citation in one post.
 
Tanoomba

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Doc: "Anita's whole premise for this video series and its importance is that the treatment of women in video games effects how people think and behave towards women in real life. Mainly, that the misogynistic portrayals of women in media leads to the proliferation of misogynistic attitudes in the real world. This is literally THE reason she makes these videos.

Tan has now backed himself into a corner so badly that he's forced to acknowledge that she believes this while at the same time doesn't believe that "games cause misogyny". Clearly fucking trolling at this point and will take absolutely any position necessary to continue an argument. I can see what he's trying to do here. He's going to play yet another one of his bullshit semantic games and try to spend a couple thousand words explaining how influencing actions and attitudes with misogynistic ideas is totes different from "causing misogyny".

My response to this game he's about to try and play: "

Translation: "No, seriously, guise! Saying that something contributes to an environment that leads to greater acceptance and proliferation of certain attitudes is TOTALLY the same as saying it CAUSES those attitudes! For realz!"
 
Mario Speedwagon

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Greater acceptance and proliferation is causing those attitudes and ideas to be conceived of and accepted by people whom otherwise would not. It is LITERALLY causing those people to be more misogynistic than they would have been absent the influence of these games. I legitimately hope that the black family you live with rapes you.
 
Tanoomba

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Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
Greater acceptance and proliferation is causing those attitudes and ideas to be conceived of and accepted by people whom otherwise would not. It is LITERALLY causing those people to be more misogynistic than they would have been absent the influence of these games. I legitimately hope that the black family you live with rapes you.
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Contributing towards something is NOT causing something. Does McDonald's cause obesity or does it contribute to an atmosphere where cheap, unhealthy food is conveniently available at any time within a few minutes from anywhere, which can lead to obesity? I can say with confidence that I love McDonald's and I am not obese. I can say with confidence that I love tits in games and I am not misogynist. However, it is not unfeasible to me that they could be contributing to environments that lead to a higher likelihood of certain negative traits. There is no contradiction there. There is no word play. You're the one being lazy here.

Also, the Jacksons are the best people you could ever know. Don't besmirch their name with your bigoted bullshit.
 
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