Cad
scientia potentia est
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I do weighted lunges and squats, just not that heavy. Also do plyo and other speed training as part of my sports training.
Weight Loss Thread
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Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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It kind of depends on what you define heavy as. I've seen some impressive physiques built with what I consider to be light weight squats, but my light weight and yours may be vastly different. At a minimum, you probably need to get up to 275 for reps.
Eidal
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No -- "intense" movements will not "really help with losing body fat" unless you're defining "really help" as "be preferable to nothing". An intense weightlifting workout isn't nearly as effective as a slow jog which isn't nearly as effective as monitoring what you eat and eating to target.
60 min run @ 10min/mile = 900 calories burnt for a 6'1 200lb male
60 min of weightlifting is no where close to 900 calories if you're doing something sensible in the gym with proper rest times. If you're air squatting as fast as you fucking can for 5 minutes, sprinting a lap, then doing kipping pullups for 5 minutes, sprinting, then swinging a kettlebell... now you're doing HIIT and you might get up to 700 calories/hour.
One of these is relatively easy and mindless to do (jog at a sustainable pace), the other is not. Hence, not efficient. Some variants of HIIT can come close to straight cardio in "calories burnt" but the price you pay is much higher. Price being defined as recovery time and mental stress. Obviously, there are many people for whom HIIT makes sense (athletes) -- I'm solely discussing the "wanna look good naked" crowd... HIIT isn't necessary or efficient and you shouldn't ever view your gym time as "good for losing body fat". Gym time is for building muscle, period. Losing body fat = 5 sets of 10 reps of putting the fork down.
You squat and deadlift for quads/hams/glutes/abs/back development -- not to lose body fat.
He doesn't. Compare his stomach/abs to yours. Maybe he is 1-2 percent lower... but either way, both of are you are right around 15. Nadal cuts down lower for professional photoshoots (and also gets photoshopped). If you gained 10-15 pounds of muscle and maintained relatively the same body fat, your BF% would probably be equal.
Ossoi
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Sigh, I really can't be arsed to read any more of your posts because you constantly misintepret everything and reply with totally unnecessary walls of text
Yeah, someone who wants to lose fat and gain muscle should absolutely go and run for 60 minutes, cause that is so effective for putting their body into an anabolic state
Do I need to post my picture again?
Eidal
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The irony.
I was illustrating why calories burnt from lifting is irrelevant by comparing it to HIIT and jogging. My point was that even doing your retarded leg routine, you still aren't burning that many calories so its a fallacy to think of lifting as a fat burner. I never once suggested anyone go run; I suggested eating to target (for weight gain/loss) and lifting heavy (for muscle gain/maintenance). You are hands-down either the dumbest person in this thread or are a genuine person saddled with horrific reading comprehension. What, exactly, do you think your picture proves? That bitch-ass squats and a bad men's fitness program are instrumental in looking like Ossoi?
Ossoi
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I told him to do a leg day because at the point where I joined your squat debate, it sounded like he was skipping legs entirely. Leg day vs back/shoulders day or chest/arms day - nobody is going to deny that leg day works you the hardest, that was all I was saying - but you have to come in with your retard wall of text and start talking about cardio, which is irrelevant to someone LIKE CAD, that wants to lose fat and gain some muscle.
Yes, keep on slagging off a book you haven't read - it's about as logical as me saying your wife, who I've never met, is an ugly cow.
Feel free to keep trying to start debates by arguing with people about THEIR goals and trying to get them to change what kind of physique they feel is ideal for THEM. It's retarded, just like when you tried to critique my program because you felt it was not optimal for strength gain when that's never been MY goal.
I, on the other hand, will continue to post in this thread, trying to advise people on how to reach THEIR goals, based on my own experience of cutting from 20%+ to sub 10%
Cad
scientia potentia est
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Eidal - for my part I still have belly fat so I feel like I need to cut more to get rid of it. Nadal doesn't have any flab. Maybe our bodies are just different but I don't want to have any flab so that's goal #1. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but getting good results so far.
Ossoi
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you're not doing it wrong. Your current body fat levels mean you have bad insulin sensitivity - this means when you eat carbs then your body is less efficient at using the resulting insulin spike for muscle growth, preferring to use it for fat storage. Getting leaner will improve your insulin sensitivity, which means when you start eating more carbs to bulk, your body is more efficient at using them.
Eidal
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That makes sense man. I showed my wife your pic and the comparison pic of Nadal and she immediately says "yea he needs more muscle". I started laughing and she then reminded me that she said the same thing to me when I told her I was starting a cut. I think we, as men striving for self-improvement, are overly sensitive to body fat because we associate minimal body fat with all the male icons. One thing think is worth mentioning is that a huge majority of athletes and all models will routinely use drugs to achieve physiques that are otherwise very very difficult for men to reach naturally. I'm not saying it isn't possible to be sub 15percent BF natural, but everything I've read indicates that as you go progressively lower, it begins to take more and more monitoring and careful careful control over nutrition/fitness. Anytime you see a professional photo-shoot of someone with their rippling abs and clearly delineated muscles... well, don't assume that it was natural or even that its an achievable look done naturally.
Tilluin, you need to go on a slow bulk and start building mass. Whether or not you cut to a specific level first is up to you, but I don't think you will look better at a lower BF until you build some more muscle. You seem reluctant to monitor your nutrition; I really want to stress how important this is for someone looking to efficiently develop a physique. Without drugs, nutrition is HUGE. It takes me 1-2 minutes per meal to add my food into Myfitnesspal (this includes using a scale for portions that need to be weighed)... its worth it. The most important thing is to eat a proper amount of calories, followed by an appropriate amount of protein. The highest recorded beneficial amount of protein in a controlled study was .82g per pound of body weight, and people typically round this up to 1g/pound. Once you start eating a surplus, you will begin to slowly fill in your deficient areas. Some people prefer to cut to 10 percent and bulk to 15 (rinse/repeat), others do 20-->15-->20. Bouncing between 10-15-10 is probably optimal, but also requires more discipline and monitoring for nutrition.
Mind if I ask where you got your current program, and if you've considered adopting a well-respected program online for hypertrophy? I'm pretty sure that more experienced lifters would dismiss your program as "meh, it'll work but its not the best". Short explanation of why I think it might be sub-optimal: your lift #s don't look high enough to need a full week of recovery. This is definitely not something I'm an expert in, butStrength Standardsis a good method to figure out how much recovery time you likely need. Regardless of how long you've been lifting, if you're only moving a novice amount of weight, then you probably don't need a five day split. Nice fucking bench though, haha. If you're putting up those numbers on bench on a cut, then you're going to really enjoy your gains on a bulk.
EDIT: Here is a decent workout selecter fromBodybuilding - everybody wants to be a bodybuilder
Rohit Nair - Program Picker
People report good success on the PHAT workout; I've heard comments about its tough but rewarding. Also note that the guidance is that until your numbers are intermediate+ you would likely gain faster elsewhere... but with the caveat saying "do whats fun".
Warmuth
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Deciding to bulk or cut probably depends more on fat distribution than anything else. I carry the majority in my midsection, so even now at 15% ish I'm cutting down until its gone. I'd really rather bulk since I'm pretty thin but I'm tired of not having a flat stomach/lower back. Some people are lucky fucks and have flat midsections and blurry abs at 15%, I'd bulk away if that we're the case but better to go 10 to 15 and look good most of the time than 15 to 20 and be soft there all the time.
...and yeah tracking nutrition is more important than anything if you are concerned at all with how you look as opposed to being a power lifter with a gut. People really spin their wheels not paying attention to what they eat.
...and yeah tracking nutrition is more important than anything if you are concerned at all with how you look as opposed to being a power lifter with a gut. People really spin their wheels not paying attention to what they eat.
Noodleface
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I usually do 2 sections per day in a 3-day cycle. On one day I'll do maybe chest and tris, or whatever. I might do 4 exercises per muscle group.. so for chest I might do flat press, flat flys, incline press, pushups. Then whatever for tris, you get the idea. It was honestly closer to an hour of exercise.
Ossoi
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No
No.
I should finish my cut by end of July at the latest. This is me backing up my opinion with actions/pictures - I've been planning to get some semi proper pictures done at the end of it. Happy to upload here and show everyone how much absolute bollocks you're talking. In fact, if the pictures aren't up by mid August, the mods have my permission to ban me from this thread
Tilluin_sl said:
Oh look, Eidal is trying to tell yet another person that THEIR goals are wrong and giving them totally contrary advice to THEIR goals. What a surprise!
Tilluin_sl said:
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK
He's lost 4 stone last year, how the fuck would he manage that if he wasn't monitoring his nutrition? Do you think the tooth fairy just came along and took away 25kg of weight overnight??!?!
Yes, and all these studies were not done with low carb diets. Without restricting carb, then you can get away with these protein amounts. When you reduce carbs, to drop weight/lose fat quicker), then as carbs are protein sparing, you have to increase protein to compensate. Common sense. He's already told you he's LOST FOUR FUCKING STONE and is low carbing - why the actual fuck would you hit him with one of your patented unecessary walls of text with myfitnesspal 101 and going on about protein studies
Tilluin, please do not listen to this idiot LOL
Yeah exactly, I was the same when I started training last year - I wanted abs and muscle/size was secondary to getting abs and I'm sure a lot of people just want to get lean more than anything else. Eidal is just trying to tell Tilluin that his goals are wrong and that he should actually be prioritising other stuff - as he has already done with several other posters
Eidal
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Ossoi, I was responding to him stating: "Thanks for the advice - I've not committed to calculating exact protein per kg etc but I guess keeping that precise will ensure I'm making the right gains." I wanted to stress how important nutrition is for a physique. I'm not even sure how you're disagreeing with me; you suggested he carefully monitor protein -- he was responding to you with an "eh, maybe" which indicated he didn't think it was necessarily a big deal. He used to be obese (6'2 250)... going from obese --> not obese takes less meticulous tracking than doing 10% --> 15% cycles... how can you even argue this? He lost 55 pounds by eating a deficit; now he wants to be lean and look good (build muscle). Its a more difficult task (with more stringent requirements) to build lean muscle at low BF and maintain it through a cut.
I never once said it's impossible to do lean bulk/cut cycles -- I said its more difficult to do than fitness models would lead you to believe. MOST people whose professional career involves high-performance athletics or having badass cut muscles at low BF rely on some form of pharmaceuticals to help them. I did not say it was impossible to do it naturally, I'm trying to tie this in to how important nutrition tracking is to have a killer physique without drugs!
Specifically, to the protein, the .82 number is for building muscle. It won't hurt you to eat more for satiety or for fuel... it's just not necessary -- you can use any other macro as well. I do routinely eat over 1g/bw but that's not to get stronger, that's just because I like feeling full.
I never once said his goal is wrong; he said he "doesn't want to be huge but wants to be defined/cut" . He needs to build muscle to do this. I prefaced my post with "you can cut fat now or later".
It's my personal opinion (and I guarantee you, if he posted a "should I cut or bulk" to a fitness forum, EVERYONE would agree), that he'd see better aesthetic gains if he bulked now.
Stop acting all butt-hurt that I made fun of your retard program -- its like you purposely misread everything I type because I dared critique your method. I got it, it worked for you and you're happy with your results -- but your broscience understanding of the human body is hilarious and has already been pointed out by other people in this thread. Go post your shit somewhere not frequented by amateur fitness MMO players; go post your shit in r/weightlifting or r/bodybuilding and ask for critiques. You'll be laughed out of town.
I never once said it's impossible to do lean bulk/cut cycles -- I said its more difficult to do than fitness models would lead you to believe. MOST people whose professional career involves high-performance athletics or having badass cut muscles at low BF rely on some form of pharmaceuticals to help them. I did not say it was impossible to do it naturally, I'm trying to tie this in to how important nutrition tracking is to have a killer physique without drugs!
Specifically, to the protein, the .82 number is for building muscle. It won't hurt you to eat more for satiety or for fuel... it's just not necessary -- you can use any other macro as well. I do routinely eat over 1g/bw but that's not to get stronger, that's just because I like feeling full.
I never once said his goal is wrong; he said he "doesn't want to be huge but wants to be defined/cut" . He needs to build muscle to do this. I prefaced my post with "you can cut fat now or later".
It's my personal opinion (and I guarantee you, if he posted a "should I cut or bulk" to a fitness forum, EVERYONE would agree), that he'd see better aesthetic gains if he bulked now.
Stop acting all butt-hurt that I made fun of your retard program -- its like you purposely misread everything I type because I dared critique your method. I got it, it worked for you and you're happy with your results -- but your broscience understanding of the human body is hilarious and has already been pointed out by other people in this thread. Go post your shit somewhere not frequented by amateur fitness MMO players; go post your shit in r/weightlifting or r/bodybuilding and ask for critiques. You'll be laughed out of town.
Ossoi
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Tilluin_sl said:
LOL only a complete retard would tell someone who specifically states they want to look CUT by telling them they need to BULK (the exact opposite)
Ignoring his clearly stated goals/objectives and your failure to interpret them clearly - As I've already said, bulking at high bf levels is not efficient due to poor insulin sensitivity - therefore your advice to bulk is BAD.
LOL
Feb 13 - Aug 13 - 23% to 9.9% and 6kg of muscle gained in the process.
Ahh yes, because reddit is definitely not populated by amateur fitness computer nerds. Jesus, you really are a complete cretin. And for the record I regularly post on /r/leangains
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Noodleface
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Warmuth
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The real issue separating what works vs. what doesn't is that truthfully all diet/fitness plans work to the point that normal people are willing to follow them. 1%(pulled from my ass number) or probably less of all people that have fitness goals will ever get to the point that they need to worry about anything more than total calories and doing any type of exercise at all.
My "goal" is 190 and 10%. At my current 6'3" and 175 stats that's probably 2 years in a strict regimen. Just getting from 190 to 175 in a few months was easy and done with no discipline other than eat "clean". Now getting to 10% from 15 and the bulking and cutting cycles to get back the 15-20 pounds in lean mass will require a lot of work that people just wanting to look toned would never put up with.
My "goal" is 190 and 10%. At my current 6'3" and 175 stats that's probably 2 years in a strict regimen. Just getting from 190 to 175 in a few months was easy and done with no discipline other than eat "clean". Now getting to 10% from 15 and the bulking and cutting cycles to get back the 15-20 pounds in lean mass will require a lot of work that people just wanting to look toned would never put up with.
Thanks for the tips - after being fat I'm a bit hesitant to bulk as I have that nagging thought in the back of my head I'll do it wrong and end up fat again. My goal is to be trim / lean and I was hoping through lifting I'd create lean muscle to make me look toned. I did lose weight by working off a strict diet (I lost 3 stone in about 4-5 months and then the last stone slowly over the last 7 months or so when I slacked off a bit) - I had a poached egg for breakfast every day, a can of chicken soup for lunch every day and then evening meals with very little carbs with mostly meat and veg. I've stuck to that ever since but I'm now trying to add scrambled eggs and other protein sources to meals regularly.
My program was designed by my friend who is just starting to look at starting his own personal training business as he's a gym instructor and wants to progress. He's 'training' me and 4 other friends for free but because we live an hour away from each other we only lift together once every 2 weeks. I'm trying to maximize my gains as his business is going to rely on the before / after photos that me and my friends can provide him with initially and I want to do the best for him that I can. I'm also motivated by completing my own journey from fat to cut.
The main thing losing weight did for me was made me think before I put food in my mouth which I think is a permanent change. It sounds like my workouts are fine and I need to tailor my diet more specifically. Are there any good high protein low / 0 carb snacks I could take between meals? I have a handful of nuts in the evenings sometimes with a protein shake but I'd love to have some variety. I hate avocado and fish which is a huge disadvantage for my meals! Finding variety for meals is tough as there's only a certain amount of ways to cook chicken / steak.
My program was designed by my friend who is just starting to look at starting his own personal training business as he's a gym instructor and wants to progress. He's 'training' me and 4 other friends for free but because we live an hour away from each other we only lift together once every 2 weeks. I'm trying to maximize my gains as his business is going to rely on the before / after photos that me and my friends can provide him with initially and I want to do the best for him that I can. I'm also motivated by completing my own journey from fat to cut.
The main thing losing weight did for me was made me think before I put food in my mouth which I think is a permanent change. It sounds like my workouts are fine and I need to tailor my diet more specifically. Are there any good high protein low / 0 carb snacks I could take between meals? I have a handful of nuts in the evenings sometimes with a protein shake but I'd love to have some variety. I hate avocado and fish which is a huge disadvantage for my meals! Finding variety for meals is tough as there's only a certain amount of ways to cook chicken / steak.
Ossoi
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If you haven't been lifting for very long then you CAN lose fat and gain muscle - provided you eat right and train right. As I said earlier, aim for 4g protein per kg. If you're eating enough protein then it should keep you feeling fuller for longer and less need to snack between meals.
Yes, variety is a problem for me too. 3 of the next 4 days look like this for me: 2 x 120g salmon fillets and 6 x 150g chicken breasts. That puts me at 1700 calories and 334g protein. I'll have 300g sweet potato after my workouts and 1 scoop protein shake with some flaxseed added for fiber for 2278 calories toal. Dropping the sweet potato on non workout days leaves me at around 2000cals.
How are you finding keeping the carbs low? Do you feel any "symptoms" of low carb? e.g hard to sleep, lacking energy in gym?