What vehicle do you drive?

Sledge

Sledge

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ToeMissile said:
Kia is apparently working on something. I think Tacoma/Ranger size first
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It's supposed to start at about $38k. So that sucks. I'm sure the Rav4 truck will be priced too high also.

I don't really understand why this can't be done and I don't think regulations are causing all of the issues. I've had commercial Isuzu cabover trucks that are completely stripped down to bare bones with metal panels showing everywhere. No power windows, optional A/C, optional radio, vinyl seats, no air bags. The new ones look the same as the ones from 20 yrs ago. Hell those small commercial vans are tin cans with maybe an airbag, but uncovered metal panels everywhere. What other regulations are killing this? MPG is easy, just put a tiny motor in it.

If these came out I would immediately buy two of them. One with a flat bed and another with a small enclosed box on the back.

"There's just no demand or we would build it". "Everyone wants luxury items" Total bullshit. You can't even find a stripped down truck on the lots anymore that's why people aren't buying them. And even the stripped down models are over $40k, because why the fuck not screw people over.
 
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Sledge

Sledge

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Cad said:
Safety equipment/standards driving the price up I would assume.
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It seems like there's probably more greed involved than safety regulations. They all have to pass crash testing, but manufactures have know about crumple zones and air bags for decades. It's just a simple design feature at this point and the actual cost of an air bag for the manufacturer can't be that damn high.

I wish one of these companies could find a loop hole and get it done. Like you order a truck that has all the regulated shit on it, but there's a little check box at the bottom of the order form that says 'remove all this shit from the order and I promise not to drive it on the highway, wink wink.'

Hell fireworks have been illegal in Ohio for decades but you can go into the fireworks store and buy anything you want. The loop hole: They make you sign a piece of paper that says you won't be letting them off in Ohio. Sign it, pay, and walk out the door. Fucking stupid.
 
Siliconemelons

Siliconemelons

Ssraeszha Raider
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Sledge said:
It seems like there's probably more greed involved than safety regulations. They all have to pass crash testing, but manufactures have know about crumple zones and air bags for decades. It's just a simple design feature at this point and the actual cost of an air bag for the manufacturer can't be that damn high.

I wish one of these companies could find a loop hole and get it done. Like you order a truck that has all the regulated shit on it, but there's a little check box at the bottom of the order form that says 'remove all this shit from the order and I promise not to drive it on the highway, wink wink.'

Hell fireworks have been illegal in Ohio for decades but you can go into the fireworks store and buy anything you want. The loop hole: They make you sign a piece of paper that says you won't be letting them off in Ohio. Sign it, pay, and walk out the door. Fucking stupid.
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Heh in Florida you sign that you “are a farmer and need them to drive off birds and vermin”

The car reg stuff is all about litigation and liability getting sued etc.
 
Burren

Burren

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Sledge said:
It's supposed to start at about $38k. So that sucks. I'm sure the Rav4 truck will be priced too high also.

I don't really understand why this can't be done and I don't think regulations are causing all of the issues. I've had commercial Isuzu cabover trucks that are completely stripped down to bare bones with metal panels showing everywhere. No power windows, optional A/C, optional radio, vinyl seats, no air bags. The new ones look the same as the ones from 20 yrs ago. Hell those small commercial vans are tin cans with maybe an airbag, but uncovered metal panels everywhere. What other regulations are killing this? MPG is easy, just put a tiny motor in it.

If these came out I would immediately buy two of them. One with a flat bed and another with a small enclosed box on the back.

"There's just no demand or we would build it". "Everyone wants luxury items" Total bullshit. You can't even find a stripped down truck on the lots anymore that's why people aren't buying them. And even the stripped down models are over $40k, because why the fuck not screw people over.
Click to expand...
Yes, manufacturers could make more affordable vehicles. But, margins, revenue, and a greedy board, etc...
 
ToeMissile

ToeMissile

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<Gold Donor>
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Sledge said:
It's supposed to start at about $38k. So that sucks. I'm sure the Rav4 truck will be priced too high also.

I don't really understand why this can't be done and I don't think regulations are causing all of the issues. I've had commercial Isuzu cabover trucks that are completely stripped down to bare bones with metal panels showing everywhere. No power windows, optional A/C, optional radio, vinyl seats, no air bags. The new ones look the same as the ones from 20 yrs ago. Hell those small commercial vans are tin cans with maybe an airbag, but uncovered metal panels everywhere. What other regulations are killing this? MPG is easy, just put a tiny motor in it.

If these came out I would immediately buy two of them. One with a flat bed and another with a small enclosed box on the back.

"There's just no demand or we would build it". "Everyone wants luxury items" Total bullshit. You can't even find a stripped down truck on the lots anymore that's why people aren't buying them. And even the stripped down models are over $40k, because why the fuck not screw people over.
Click to expand...
I think for consumer vehicles people on the whole do want luxury/comfort. Also, margins aren’t great in the auto industry, especially in the small/cheap vehicles. It seems there’s also developed a lot of bloat/tech/process debt in the development/logistics/manufacturing of the auto industry in the US.

As much as people like to shit in Tesla (there are plenty of legitimate criticisms), they brought to light a lot of those issues with what they’ve shown is possible.

There are a bunch of other factors as well that all add layers of complexity and convolution, same as just about any other industry/sector in the economy.
 
Fucker

Fucker

Log Wizard
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Sledge said:
It's supposed to start at about $38k. So that sucks. I'm sure the Rav4 truck will be priced too high also.

I don't really understand why this can't be done and I don't think regulations are causing all of the issues. I've had commercial Isuzu cabover trucks that are completely stripped down to bare bones with metal panels showing everywhere. No power windows, optional A/C, optional radio, vinyl seats, no air bags. The new ones look the same as the ones from 20 yrs ago. Hell those small commercial vans are tin cans with maybe an airbag, but uncovered metal panels everywhere. What other regulations are killing this? MPG is easy, just put a tiny motor in it.

If these came out I would immediately buy two of them. One with a flat bed and another with a small enclosed box on the back.

"There's just no demand or we would build it". "Everyone wants luxury items" Total bullshit. You can't even find a stripped down truck on the lots anymore that's why people aren't buying them. And even the stripped down models are over $40k, because why the fuck not screw people over.
Click to expand...
People want their creature comforts, and they are willing to pay for them, especially in the truck market.

You can't find a stripper truck on a lot, but you can order one. Dealers don't stock them because no one buys them. Hell, Toyota has piles of SR trim (base model) Tacoma/Tundra for cheap. $37k-41k. You can buy S trim (base model) Nissan Frontiers all day for $33k. Walk into any Toyota dealership, and they will source an SR for you if they don't have one.

Further, there are lots of decent cheap SUV's. Chevy has a sales hit on their hands with the new Trax. $21.7k. I see these things all over the place, and there are at least two new ones in my neighborhood. I don't know how reliable they are, but they are far from being a shitbox like the previous model.
 
Fucker

Fucker

Log Wizard
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ToeMissile said:
I think for consumer vehicles people on the whole do want luxury/comfort. Also, margins aren’t great in the auto industry, especially in the small/cheap vehicles. It seems there’s also developed a lot of bloat/tech/process debt in the development/logistics/manufacturing of the auto industry in the US.

As much as people like to shit in Tesla (there are plenty of legitimate criticisms), they brought to light a lot of those issues with what they’ve shown is possible.

There are a bunch of other factors as well that all add layers of complexity and convolution, same as just about any other industry/sector in the economy.
Click to expand...
Bloat/tech/process debt is kicking Ford in the nuts. One of their former engineers said it was a problem, because Ford outsources much of their design and software work, and they take what the suppliers give them. For instance, he said they have several suppliers for seats, and each of these suppliers have their own software stacks that have to be integrated into their whole system. Within that, they have versions that are constantly changing and being deprecated. This is 1990's era level software development.

And then there is Toyota, who develops a standard to which their suppliers must adhere to. Design It Our Way or Get Fucking Lost. Further, Toyota rarely makes incremental changes to their hardware or software over the lifespan of the product. For instance, their previous gen Tundra 2007-2021 had a long standing issue with some of their rubber sealant plugs for heads in their V-8 engines. Did they change the process? The fuck no they didn't. They knew they got it 99.9% right, and going after that tiny leftover % would have cost them more grief than it was worth. This is how they operate. They move slowly and resist change as a core tenet of their business model. OTOH, ALL the other car manufacturers have gotten themselves well and truly fucked with EV's, but not Toyota.

Tesla is another example of different viewpoints on how to do things. They are constantly iterating on all their designs and software. The Tesla Model S debuted in 2012. The 2026 model looks the same, but it is a fundamentally different animal under the skin. They can do this because they have primacy over the entire supplier chain, and they are constantly chasing more efficient ways to make things. Musk has also taken this approach to SpaceX. Their giant engines only 2 generations apart are completely different and cheaper and simpler to build with each new generation.

Speaking of bloat and the other things you mentioned, at one point 10 years ago, Toyota had over 600 different engine/transmission combinations globally. They have dispensed with most of them, and have moved to global platforms and processes that has obliterated the cost of bloat. Most of their current gen vehicles are the same globally, right down to paint options. The side the steering wheel is different, but everything else is the same. Hell, even their engine production plants are identical on a global scale....to such a point that a machining fuck up in Japan is reproduced globally.
 
Kobayashi

Kobayashi

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Hekotat said:
Last I heard it was still required on 2027 cars, I hope it isn't possible. It'll likely kill the new car market and skyrocket used prices even higher. Plus it's too invasive and a disturbing requirement.
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I promise you it's not. This has been going around, but it's a bunch of clickbait bullshit. If you look, they cite a rider to one of these omnibus bills that requested NHTSA work on a standard for drunk driver monitoring/interlock targeting implementation in 2027. Problem is, the technology doesn't work nearly well enough, so, NHTSA has sat on it. They would need to issue a final ruling on the standard, which then would give the industry 3 years to implement. I highly doubt it's ever coming to fruition.

It's even fooled some people in the industry. One guy was parroting this and I called him out on it - "You literally work on these vehicles, explain to me exactly where this new equipment is being implemented."
 
Kobayashi

Kobayashi

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Fucker said:
Bloat/tech/process debt is kicking Ford in the nuts. One of their former engineers said it was a problem, because Ford outsources much of their design and software work, and they take what the suppliers give them. For instance, he said they have several suppliers for seats, and each of these suppliers have their own software stacks that have to be integrated into their whole system. Within that, they have versions that are constantly changing and being deprecated. This is 1990's era level software development.

And then there is Toyota, who develops a standard to which their suppliers must adhere to. Design It Our Way or Get Fucking Lost. Further, Toyota rarely makes incremental changes to their hardware or software over the lifespan of the product. For instance, their previous gen Tundra 2007-2021 had a long standing issue with some of their rubber sealant plugs for heads in their V-8 engines. Did they change the process? The fuck no they didn't. They knew they got it 99.9% right, and going after that tiny leftover % would have cost them more grief than it was worth. This is how they operate. They move slowly and resist change as a core tenet of their business model. OTOH, ALL the other car manufacturers have gotten themselves well and truly fucked with EV's, but not Toyota.

Tesla is another example of different viewpoints on how to do things. They are constantly iterating on all their designs and software. The Tesla Model S debuted in 2012. The 2026 model looks the same, but it is a fundamentally different animal under the skin. They can do this because they have primacy over the entire supplier chain, and they are constantly chasing more efficient ways to make things. Musk has also taken this approach to SpaceX. Their giant engines only 2 generations apart are completely different and cheaper and simpler to build with each new generation.

Speaking of bloat and the other things you mentioned, at one point 10 years ago, Toyota had over 600 different engine/transmission combinations globally. They have dispensed with most of them, and have moved to global platforms and processes that has obliterated the cost of bloat. Most of their current gen vehicles are the same globally, right down to paint options. The side the steering wheel is different, but everything else is the same. Hell, even their engine production plants are identical on a global scale....to such a point that a machining fuck up in Japan is reproduced globally.
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Not saying this guy is wrong, but what you're describing as the Toyota way is pretty much how all traditional OEMs operate (my limited experience with Ford included). They have a book of specifications that they release to a tier 1 for a part when it's being developed.

The problem with this model in modern vehicles is you've now got 40, 50, (maybe 100 or more modules on some loaded German bullshit) going into a single vehicle developed by different suppliers that are then networked together with those specs as the only glue holding things together. Hopefully every one of those suppliers interprets that spec in the intended way.

If you want to implement a new feature/function, there's a good chance it's touching multiple modules, so, all those impacted specs need to potentially be updated and the OEM has herd all those cats. One of Ford's problems is they're one of the most aggressive OEMs in terms of new features/functions.

Tesla disrupted things by doing a vertically integrated clean slate design of a modern vehicle and don't have all that existing ECU baggage. The average automotive executive doesn't have a good enough understanding of the problem to sign off on going through the cost/pain of implementing a completely new solution when they have something off-shelf that works. Most are doing half-measures, bringing some software development in-house and implementing limited zonal/central controllers, but it's a lot of reshuffling of functions and limited consolidation.

Interestingly, Ford is actually the traditional OEM that is probably closest to emulating Tesla's lead. They've brought a lot of major ECU development in-house and the Universal EV Platform is supposed to be a true clean slate design. Their major issue lately hasn't been the concept, though, it's the execution.

EVs fuck over the major traditional OEMs the most because the true killer barrier for entry wasn't the body electronics, it was the engine. Building something with all those moving parts cheaply that can run reliably for 100s of thousands of miles was not easy. EVs with their limited moving parts and borderline commoditized components in motors, inverters, and batteries opened things up for new people to come in and disrupt things, especially with all the government subsidies.
 
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