Wheel of Time series

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Kadmoran_sl

shitlord
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Azrayne_sl said:
Was pretty solid closure to the series overall, with some amazing moments and a few meh ones.

- Egwene's death scene was seriously cool, it was a pretty awesome way to fully bring her around after how annoying she was at the beginning of the series but felt kind of anticlimatic to her storyline as a whole. They build her up as this revolutionary figure in the White Tower, then she dies instead of going on to actually implement her changes? It also made Siuan's death kinda meaningless, since right beforehand she's talking about how her legacy lives on through Egwene, but, nope.

- While Lan v. Demandred was incredibly hardcore, having already gone through it twice with Gawyn and Galad getting their asses kicked made it feel a little repetitive.

- Androl/Pevara were awesome the whole way through. Nice to get some more human characters who still kick serious ass.

- Logain was a bit hit and miss. he started out great, then went a bit off, while it was nice to get some insight into the effect his life had had on him, it seemed a bit out of place right at the climax of the series, although I guess it builds up to greater things. I was expecting a bit more from him, hoping he'd take down one of the forsaken or something

- Mat was amazing the whole way through. Complete 180 from how shitty he was when Sanderson first picked up the series. Although the whole Fain thing was really anticlimatic and just felt tacked on

- Perrin was almost a complete reverse, he was awesome in TGS/TOM but was basically on the sidelines or caught up in one shitty minor subplot the whole time, all he did was kill a side-villain who barely played a role through most of the series

- The idea of Moghedian suffering for the next few centuries as a Damane makes me warm and giddy inside. Although it does have some interesting implications when you consider that the Seanchan, who don't seem to have quite given up on their 'conquer the world!' obsession, now have access to a massive amount of knowledge from the AOL with which to arm their Damane. The Dragon's Peace ain't gonna last very long if Tuon has anything to say about it, unless maybe Hawking kicks some sense into her.

I felt like they could have cut a good 100 or so pages from the first half of the book, went into way too much detail about the different battles before Merrilor when they ended up being pretty inconsequential anyway

- Elayne was actually.... not as much of a pain in the ass as usual. Still the worst character in the series by a massive margin, but slightly less so. Birgitte's death/return was epic.

As was Loial, especially in that first scene where the Ogiers are charging into battle in Andor or Cairhien or wherever it was. Tam kicked ass too, that brofist moment with Lan was epic

- The whole Rand v. Dark One thing was way off, basically totally shifting the philosophical basis of the series. Instead of being something totally evil, completely outside creation, now he's apparently an essential part of maintaining free will or some bullshit. I guess Sanderson wanted a reason to not have Rand kill him, but it was pretty weak stuff. The DO was never some dualistic personification, he was a counterpart to the maker, who made creation with good/evil/free will in it, whereas the DO wanted to unmake it entirely. He didn't represent the freedom to make bad choices, but nihilism, total annihilation, total lack of choice

wtf was the deal with Rand at the end? They didn't do a good job of explaining exactly what happened there. Fan theories said he'd swap into Moridin's body, but it sounds like it was Moridin they burned in Rand's place. Which body was he in? And why did he lose the ability to channel, since it's been explicitly stated that channeling is linked to the individual's soul? And if he couldn't channel, how did he light his pipe? They'd stated that the trio were no longer Ta'Veren, so it wasn't that either. wtf happened there? And why?

That said, I think they did a good job keeping the whole fisher king theme going there, though it felt like I was reading an Excalibur novelization at times, all that talk about 'dragons this' and 'one with the land' that.

Anyone else think that Olver was Gaidal Cain after all? I know Rj denied it, but the evidence is so strong, and Birgitte specifically said she'd only be a few years younger, implying that she knows that he's already been born, and when it happened'

All in all, it was a good close to a series which has been a massive part of my literary life for the last 10 - 15 years. Can't really ask for much more, other than for some gaming companies to start pumping out licensed video games. Seriously, the setting is fucking gold for something like an RTS with RPG elements, or a bioware style party based RPG, or even an action RPG
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Olver can't be Gaidal Cain, can he? At the first sounding, Cain is present, isn't he? And in the world of dreams too. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong, but the entire series of novels doesn't take place over that great of a timespan, and it'd be pretty hard for Olver to be born in that timeframe.
 
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Tral_sl

shitlord
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I'm glad Sanderson finished the series, but now having read it all I was much less a fan of his writing than Jordan's, and I think the parts of the book obviously written by Jordan, or at least more thoroughly outlined by him, were far superior. The last battle was pretty fucking well done, overall, although I wish Sanderson could have done a better job of keeping hold of all the different character threads simultaneously.
 
C

Captain Suave

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
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The problem is that Sanderson writes characters very differently than Jordan. I won't say that Jordan's are better per se, but they absolutely fit into his story better. Sanderson's early handling of Mat was just painful, for instance. Sanderson does a perfectly adequate job in Way of Kings, though none of the characters there are tremendously deep.

I just read the epilogue again and one thing jumped out at me. Niggling, I know, but:

Is this whole series really supposed to have been written by Loial? There are all manner of PoV's that there is absolutely no way he'd have any information about. I know he's set up as the resident archivist, but still...
 
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Dhameon

N00b
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Meh, I'm just glad the final book is being delivered, and I can get this over with. Not as bad as ASOFAI, but I've been reading this series for over a decade and now I'm just looking for a conclusion.
 
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Yukiri_sl

shitlord
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Azrayne_sl said:
- Egwene's death scene was seriously cool, it was a pretty awesome way to fully bring her around after how annoying she was at the beginning of the series but felt kind of anticlimatic to her storyline as a whole. They build her up as this revolutionary figure in the White Tower, then she dies instead of going on to actually implement her changes? It also made Siuan's death kinda meaningless, since right beforehand she's talking about how her legacy lives on through Egwene, but, nope.
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Agree with that completely. It almost felt like theyneededone of the core characters to die and realized she was the only option. RJ painted them into a corner with visions and prophecies accounting for all the others and she got the short straw, her build up be damned. I was very disappointed in the way that all played out.

I just finished the book this morning so while Im behind the curve on commenting my nitpicks have been pretty thoroughly covered. I wish I could have read Tuon meeting Hawkwing, I wish i could have known just what the fuck happened to Alanna since she last popped up in a book. Hell I would have loved just a sentence or two about how Pevara and Androl's new relationship caused some Aes Sedai to spaz out.

Aside from all the little nitpicks Im satisifed but mostly just glad it's all over.
 
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Tral_sl

shitlord
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Captain Suave_sl said:
Is this whole series really supposed to have been written by Loial? There are all manner of PoV's that there is absolutely no way he'd have any information about. I know he's set up as the resident archivist, but still...
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I was reading an ebook so maybe the formatting was wrong, but I interpreted that as attributing the last quotation to him, not the entire book.
 
Azrayne

Azrayne

Irenicus did nothing wrong
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Ko Dokomo_sl said:
I have to disagree with your analysis of the nature of the Dark One. We really only had Moridin's word that he wants to unmake creation. And frankly, he's not reliable at all. Moridin even mentions that being returned to life was his punishment for being crazy and claiming to the TDO. But it's punishment because TDO IS evil. The literal source of it. He punshied Moridin because excessive punishment is what he does. The deam that Rand saw first seemed to me the real goal of TDO. A world where evil has more weight than good. WoT has always been oriented towards the good vs. evil Manichean dualism. I think it more of a reflection of how our society has changed over 23 years that we now want to view it through the prism of order vs. chaos.
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Honestly, it could go either way as far as his intentions go, while I stand by my interpretation of his goals, I can't remember enough of the earlier books to back it up. Despite that, I'm pretty certain that there was never anything that implied that the DO/Creator were some kind of antithetical, personified sources of good and evil with their mere presences being responsible for their end of the moral spectrum being available within the pattern. The creator was always more of a deistic 'build shit and stand back while it runs' force, and there was nothing to suggest that the DO's mere presence had any impact on reality before the Bore was opened. And if that was the case, wouldn't that mean for the DO to succeed he'd have to wipe out the Creator himself, his opposite, the source of all good? Instead of focusing on the creator himself, he's always been focused on his creation.

And how do you explain the age of legends? That's basically what Rand's dream was, a world without violence or disease, and there's never been any insinuation that the AOL deprived people of their free will or whatever, to the contrary, it's been held up as a utopia through the entire series.

Honestly, I don't think it was an intentional retcon so much as just sloppy on Sandersons part, he made storyline decisions without considering the implications for the philosophical and metaphysical aspects of the WOT universe. But whatever, can't blame a dude, he did a pretty fucking amazing job of taking on the project and giving us a satisfactory ending.

Also, if you guys want some serious lolworthy reading, go read the thread about Androl in the AMOL forum on dragonmount.com. Everyone over there is acting like he's some fan fiction mary sue character Sanderson inserted to personally stick it to all the WOT fans. Funny shit.
 
P

Pinadil

Lord Nagafen Raider
49
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Excellent end to the series.

I was disappointed that Shaidar Haran was discarded so quickly. Also, the DO's motivations seemed too human. Why does an eternal cosmic force really care about enslaving the world.
 
Arch

Arch

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Azrayne_sl said:
Honestly, it could go either way as far as his intentions go, while I stand by my interpretation of his goals, I can't remember enough of the earlier books to back it up. Despite that, I'm pretty certain that there was never anything that implied that the DO/Creator were some kind of antithetical, personified sources of good and evil with their mere presences being responsible for their end of the moral spectrum being available within the pattern. The creator was always more of a deistic 'build shit and stand back while it runs' force, and there was nothing to suggest that the DO's mere presence had any impact on reality before the Bore was opened. And if that was the case, wouldn't that mean for the DO to succeed he'd have to wipe out the Creator himself, his opposite, the source of all good? Instead of focusing on the creator himself, he's always been focused on his creation.

And how do you explain the age of legends? That's basically what Rand's dream was, a world without violence or disease, and there's never been any insinuation that the AOL deprived people of their free will or whatever, to the contrary, it's been held up as a utopia through the entire series.

Honestly, I don't think it was an intentional retcon so much as just sloppy on Sandersons part, he made storyline decisions without considering the implications for the philosophical and metaphysical aspects of the WOT universe. But whatever, can't blame a dude, he did a pretty fucking amazing job of taking on the project and giving us a satisfactory ending.

Also, if you guys want some serious lolworthy reading, go read the thread about Androl in the AMOL forum on dragonmount.com. Everyone over there is acting like he's some fan fiction mary sue character Sanderson inserted to personally stick it to all the WOT fans. Funny shit.
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It ended about how I expected, with the wheel coming full circle again.

When the bore was opened during the AOL the DO's prison was "perfect" (they couldn't figure out how to get inside because the true power was used along with men and womens power presumably), they managed to patch it leading to the breaking, the taint, etc.

Even when Rand was talking about removing him I didn't see that happening, now we are back where we started with Rand setting up the creation of the AOL (again) where the DO is trapped inside a "perfect" prison (again) and the wheel will now come full circle.

All in all I was very satisfied. I agree with a lot of the gripes already posted but did enjoy some seriously awesome moments.
 
Chinaman889

Chinaman889

<Silver Donator>
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I'm in agreement here that Rand should have killed Shai'tan - I don't know why Sanderson or even Jordan decided that the Dark One was essential for people to be "evil". My assumption was that people were possessed a good and evil side to themselves naturally. I even posted my belief on the old forums.

So, now the Wheel is full circle, and in the next few Ages, someone will break the Dark One out, and this circus will go on yet again.
 
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Gagmuk

5
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Finally over. I would have loved this book back at 15 when I started the series. Still it was a great read and far better than not getting an ending. I do like Sanderson, his books can be comic-booky though, and its a bummer we'll never see Jordan's full take on it or the seanchan follow ups.
 
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Ashin

Silver Knight of the Realm
184
40
Rand said that if he was to win then it was because of the taint causing him to gain Lews Therin's memories. But with the whole theme of the series being that it's all a cycle and the same thing occuring again & again...Doesn't that mean then that everytime at the end of the Age of Legends, when the Dragon patches the Bore, the Dark One taints saidin again, which will 3000 years later cause him to be sealed again perfectly?
 
Heylel

Heylel

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No, the Wheel doesn't weave out the same exact events every age. It explores similar themes, but the details can be quite different.

Anyway, I finished last night. Overall, I'd give it an A- ending, considering the great lengths the series had to go to in order to get here. My gripes are similar to others.

I really wanted a better ending for Fain. He was built up as this huge character for 14 books and he just up and dies to wrap up the loose end. It's quite clear to me that this, more than any other facet, was not fully explored by Jordan and would have required a great deal of extrapolation that Sanderson was not willing to do in order to get it right.

I actually ended up liking Demandred in the book, but he still didn't feel like Demandred should to me. I still say he was intended to be Taim originally, but it also would have required changes in previous books so that a proper general was alive. The whole "dueling everyone who wants to come get me" thing didn't get old to me at all. I honestly wasn't sure which one would kill him, but I'm glad it ended up being Lan
 
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Rabidwoodchuck_sl

shitlord
22
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this book series changed the whole literary game for me. In the middle of a reread right meow, can't wait to fap while reading book 13!!!! Soon we'll have to have a "top 3 favorite characters and why" thread
 
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Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
Finished it last night. I loved every minute of it honestly. It had imperfections to be sure, but Brandon deserves a standing ovation. He picked up the ball and finished the game.

My thoughts on the ending:

I loved the ending. No one deserves a chance at peace, and happiness more then Rand. Getting to ride off quietly while everyone celebrates/mourns was a excellent end for the character. He never wanted any of it, and gets to live whatever life he wishes for himself now. Looks like he also gets to continue nailing 3 different chicks like a boss.

I felt like Egwene died because someone had too heh. I am okay with that since she was one of my least favorite characters.

My favorite part of the book without question is:

Rand and Mat seeing each other again. When they started comparing accomplishments I laughed my ass off. It seems so natural to me. I could see old friends doing just that.
 
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Argenthromir

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I thought the Demandred reveal was pretty cool, though more information about how captured Shara would be awesome (more than enough information to write an entire book on it). I understand that Jordan/Sanderson couldn't write much about it (Chekov's gun and all that), but the hints given, like Graendal saying it wasn't in any state to play a major part(or something like that) in the last battle, was entirely misleading. Granted, that was around book 6, so he had ~1 year or so.

Egwene's death was pleasing, both because it was fitting (much like Eldrene from Manetheren when Aemon died), and because she was such a control freak that I don't think she could have managed leading in the 4th age all that well.

Also, I love that Hinderstap was actually important. I read that little part over so many times letting it sink in. I thought it was really well done.

Kind of weird being done with a series that I've been reading for a decade, but there's still a little more left.River of Soulsa short story in the WoT universe in an anthology of short stories to help an author pay his medical bills, and the WoT encyclopedia coming out next year.
 
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