Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard

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Throag_foh

shitlord
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Twobit Whore said:
Consoles are backwards compatible. They are still making PS2 games even though the PS3 is out, etc.
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This is not necessarily true. Consoles are backward compatible only because constructors chose so. Sony is already removing hardware backward compatibility on PS3 leaving us with only software emulation. That means that if you want your PS2 MMO to be playable on the PS3 they have to redo most of the engine since the hardware aren"t the same (and not just update it as you seem to be suggesting). You cannot rely on software emulation because it"s too shitty performance-wise.
Here goes your multi-generations console MMO lifespan. I don"t think they could afford to remake the same game each generation and on top of that rely on the fact that console constructors "might" chose to make their next console backward compatible.
 
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Twobit_sl

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Engines get redone anyway. EQ has redone their engine several times. Vanguard is already planning to go form Unreal 2 to Unreal 3 in an expansion. I don"t think it"s a stretch by any means to think a dev studio could update and/or overhaul an engine every 3-5 years. And with consoles having harddrives with plenty of storage space, broadband connectivity, etc. Patching is not an issue.
 
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Druixx_foh

shitlord
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Lyenae said:
No, before a console is publicly released developers get access to "developer kits." This usually starts about 1-2 years before release. As release gets closer, they get their kits upgraded to better resemble the final release version of the console.

An MMO developed on a console would have to start before console release, and then it could be released ~3 years into a console"s life... which is often prime time. Hell some of the best PS2 games came out 5 years after original release (and now 6 years with God of War 2)

Though, I highly doubt being on a console would change much. I"ve heard just about every excuse for why MMO"s are buggy and/or run like shit and I honestly don"t buy any of them. I"m fairly certain that the first few MMO"s would run like shit on a console and the programmers/design teams wouldneverhave the responsibility to say "we fucked up," or "we mismanaged", or "we didn"t have a budget for Q&A." You"d see fingers pointed at console limitations and/or shitty dev kits before you"d get the real reason.
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I didn"t know that. That"s cool then.

Another possible complication I just thought of would be the developers would be betting the ranch on one console or else do tons more coding to get the game ready for multiple consoles somehow.

If they put all their eggs in one basket on one console, they risk failure of the game if the console has low sales numbers. Granted, game fans will buy the console just to play the game, but you would lose any casual gamers that pick up the game because it looks cool and they own that particular console. That might hurt sales quite a bit.

If they spend the extra dev time on releasing for multiple consoles, that would open up a mess where you have to get the game world to react to all players the same, regardless of console platform. I am not a programmer, so I don"t know the logistics of this, but one console may run slightly faster than another or have some other minor difference that could cause server-side issues. I"m just thinking aloud here; dunno if any of this is really valid. Of course, they could have separate game realms for the different consoles, I guess.
 
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Twobit_sl

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I"m pretty sure they would have to be console exclusive. It"s not really new territory here though, EQOA and FF have shown that MMO"s can and do work. FF is a great example of cross-platform compatibility as well.

I think the reason they would be exclusive is more due to the online service, since most of the billing/transaction etc. would have to be done via XBOX Live or the Sony equivalent. But even that could be circumvented, if the resources were there.
 
Erronius

Erronius

Macho Ma'am
<Gold Donor>
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Aradune Mithara said:
We had to agree to a launch date, or there would be no money to continue. This was unfortunate, but we will and are recovering.
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Aradune Mithara said:
So I"m not upset in anyway with SOE or Microsoft -- again, what they did give us in terms of funding and support is unprecedented. The vast majority of developers would kill for such a budget as we received. It"s just a financial reality that is hurting us short term a bit, but something I know we can and are recovering from. Also, launching around the same time as Burning Crusade wasn"t optimal either, but again, nothing we can"t recover from.
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I"m assuming that SOE refused to finance a few extra months to finish? (many have been making this assumption for quite some time now) If that is the case, than my impression of SOE incompetence is going to have to be altered. If VG needed anotherYEAR, I could see "OK guys, you won"t get another year, no way, we can"t budget that". But if the game was released "only" a couple of months before it was ready, what was SOE saving? IMHO trading the cost of an additional 2 months of development time could very well be far LESS than the cost that releasing early, and next to TBC, was.

And if that is the case, if SOE was blind to what we were predicting months ago, then I"m not sure I would be as calm about it as you. Myself, I"d be incredibly upset with SOE. If your in for a penny, your in for a pound. Having SOE give you the budget they did, you say it was/is sizable, is all well and good, but I guess I cannot grapple with them not wanting to spring for an extra month or two when it looked like it was needed.

It"s kinda like going out and buying a 100k car, and then skimping on everything else because you"re a cheap bastard.

Salesman: "Ok, would you like power windows?"
SOE: "No, no power windows."
Salesman: "What about power locks? It is a really handy feature."
SOE: "No, we don"t need power locks"
Salesman: "Ok....fine....butSURELYyou would want air conditioning, correct?"
SOE: Hey, pal, we don"t want to spend extra, we aren"t made out of money!"
Salesman: "You aren"t? You"re buying a car for 100k!!"

If what you"ve said is true, and I am thinking straight on this (I haven"t had my coffee yet this morning), I imagine I"d be carrying around a great deal of angst towards SOE. Especially since you are the target for a great deal of bullshit and poo-flinging. Maybe some deserved, maybe not, but I have the feeling that SOE hung you out to dry after stringing you all along, in a sense. Maybe you are a better man than I, or you aren"t about to tell anyone publicly how you feel abut SOE assuming there is some angst there. That, or you are a naive eternal optimist /shrug (of course thats somewhat ironic to say on this board, where there are few optimists).

Aradune Mithara said:
A little frustrating short term, but the game is out, it continues to sell well, churn is very low, and the word continues to spread that the game is fun.
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I don"t know about the "word spreading", really I don"t. True, trying to tell that to these forums is like telling Americans in the "60"s that the Russians weren"t going to invade us due to some evil intent. Regardless, I"m not hearing or seeing any word of mouth, good press or anything that would make me think "Oh, wow, VG reallyHASturned the corner!". Now understand I"m not saying that it has or hasn"t, only that I"ve seen or heard nada (I"m not counting forums, mostly talking RL).

And while on that topic, let me say the only thing I have heard is "I"m going to drop my station pass and VG possibly in a month or two". I"d really like to hear your take on the AAP rate hike and how you feel about its "potential" affect on VG. Seriously. Maybe you can"t/won"t say, but I"d like to hear what your thoughts are on it.
 
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Maxxius_foh

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Erronius said:
. . . And while on that topic, let me say the only thing I have heard is "I"m going to drop my station pass and VG possibly in a month or two". I"d really like to hear your take on the AAP rate hike and how you feel about its "potential" affect on VG. Seriously. Maybe you can"t/won"t say, but I"d like to hear what your thoughts are on it.
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Well that raises a question. Brad mentions low churn rate so far. I wonder of the box sales what percentage was bought by current pass holders. I always maintained that they were the perfect initial customers since it only was a one shot $50 purchase for them. So while a churn rate wouldn"t be high so far, since the pass holders have no reason to cancel anything, that could explain why some are claiming dying server population. The pass holders still have their accounts, but just aren"t logging into the game now. What impact the increase in SOE"s pass will have remains to be seen, but I can"t imagine it to be good.
 
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The Hiram Key_foh

shitlord
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I thought churn was a measure, over time, of customer retention ie: How many cancelled the game. Is that correct ? Does it tie into how many new subscriptions to the game, so like a net sum + or - total subscriptions ?

Either way, I fail to see how you can get any kind of valid statistic after only one month of being live. If there were 6 months of data (hell 3 months even) then I could see it being a clear indicator.

The whole station pass just clouds the validity of the number even more. A better gauge would be online users at peak time, if anyone has that information it would be great to see it, day by day, with a nice pretty graph.

Personally, I see the churn number as being largely irrelevant for any game under station pass, and definately for any game just passing the 30 day mark.
 
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Vaxxx_foh

shitlord
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The Hiram Key said:
I thought churn was a measure, over time, of customer retention ie: How many cancelled the game. Is that correct ? Does it tie into how many new subscriptions to the game, so like a net sum + or - total subscriptions ?

Either way, I fail to see how you can get any kind of valid statistic after only one month of being live. If there were 6 months of data (hell 3 months even) then I could see it being a clear indicator.

The whole station pass just clouds the validity of the number even more. A better gauge would be online users at peak time, if anyone has that information it would be great to see it, day by day, with a nice pretty graph.

Personally, I see the churn number as being largely irrelevant for any game under station pass, and definately for any game just passing the 30 day mark.
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Wow the first post I have seen from THK about Vanguard that I can actually agree with. Will wonders never cease.
 
A

Ayeshala

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Numbers should become more precise soon since so many people are going to drop the Access Pass with the price increase. There"s just no value left in there once it goes to 30$.

It"s a shame, everybody loses. Especially SOE.
 
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Sithro_foh

shitlord
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So, the game"s population is dying out?

I was hoping to play Vanguard, but that does have me a little worried. It"s kind of sad, really.

Brad, pull out your whip and get your devs cracking. When the game is solid (as it should have been), start a big advertising campaign or something. I"d really hate to see your game die because it was released prematurely.
 
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xregg_foh

shitlord
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Sithro i wouldnt listen to the clowns on this board too much. This game isnt going anywhere.

I see plenty of people on Flamehammer.

Some people just want any game but the one they play to fail and will twist facts and make up bullshit to satisfy themselves.
 
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Twobit_sl

shitlord
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xregg said:
This game isnt going anywhere.
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This part is likely true. Evenifit dropped to 50k subs, the AAP and SOE"s backing would keep it afloat.

Some people just want any game but the one they play to fail and will twist facts and make up bullshit to satisfy themselves.
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And this part is just unfounded. No one here that is critical of VG (myself included) wants to see it fail simply because they don"t play it. I suspect this line was just inflammatory incitation though, so I"ll leave it at that.
 
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bitch are your retarded?_foh

shitlord
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I"ll admit since I have no interest in ever playing VG again that the only way I could possibly derive any entertainment from it would be by watching from the outside as it fails miserably. I don"t actively hope for that to happen though, because I"m not prepared to give that much of a fuck about vanguard.

That or I"m just not hardcore enough and Vanguard represents a large threat to my softcore way of living and I fear being crushed under its sheer hardcoreness. That"s an another possibility
 
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Alarion_foh

shitlord
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bitch are your retarded? said:
I"ll admit since I have no interest in ever playing VG again that the only way I could possibly derive any entertainment from it would be by watching from the outside as it fails miserably. I don"t actively hope for that to happen though, because I"m not prepared to give that much of a fuck about vanguard.

That or I"m just not hardcore enough and Vanguard represents a large threat to my softcore way of living and I fear being crushed under its sheer hardcoreness. That"s an another possibility
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Was the experience really that bad for you? I don"t find it hardcore, though, my main is all of level 18. So yeah - I have a ways to go still. But I have been able to solo/duo for the most part, with a very casual schedule. Maybe this changes at later levels, but so far, I have enjoyed being able to login and get some stuff done in a few hours (yes yes, it can actually be done).
 
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kcxiv_foh

shitlord
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Sithro said:
So, the game"s population is dying out?

.
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well becuase of the double exp there is more people out. Actually, there is a fuckton of people out right now.

I have always seen alot of people in the area"s i have been in. The population of this game is not hurting, but i am sure they want more. What company doesnt?
 
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kcxiv_foh

shitlord
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Alarion said:
Was the experience really that bad for you? I don"t find it hardcore, though, my main is all of level 18. So yeah - I have a ways to go still. But I have been able to solo/duo for the most part, with a very casual schedule. Maybe this changes at later levels, but so far, I have enjoyed being able to login and get some stuff done in a few hours (yes yes, it can actually be done).
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i am 34 now. I can solo being a Dread Knight. YOu can play casually. IF you get into a group and go into a dungeon you going to have to dedicate a few hours or your just taking up space. Its like that with any game. If you want to log in and take on a few quests for an hour or so, you can. Its not all that hardcore. Some days i just log in and do some missive quests. Get my 10 missive turn in and log.
 
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Cantatus_foh

shitlord
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woqqqa said:
He"s nothing of the sort, he was a foul-mouthed rude bastard who despite those qualities, had a great insight into the state of this game, the devs" approach to things like features (core and "fluff"), and it"s potential market. Go look up his posts, he wasn"t just generalizing, he actually predicted a lot of the game"s current problems...related to the graphics engine, world design, Sigil/SOE and customer relations, etc.
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Utnayaen wasn"t the only one saying these things. He was just the one who was the loudest.
 
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Vaxxx_foh

shitlord
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Sithro said:
How many hours a day do you guys consider "hard core?"

I"m thinking about playing, but unlike with EQ, I want life. Lol
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It"s really not that bad, I am 23 (almost 24) and have played what I would consider casually over the last 6 weeks or so. I have yet to do an actual grind session. 99% of my grouping exp is grouping with two other people.

I play for around 2-4 hours max 3-4 nights a week. I never even logged on this double EXP weekend and only got around 8 hours in the last one.

If you only want to do adventuring, and you want the best stuff expect to play more. If you like to do some diplomacy (I do) or crafting (I don"t) then that stuff can easily eat up time by yourself.

This game really isn"t hardcore like EQ was, there is ALWAYS something to do up to at least level 30.

if you enjoyed EQ but would like more content and more stuff to see and do then give it a shot. However don"t expect to have the best gear. of course you can become a crafter master, make tons of gold and then just buy all the best gear on the auction house.
 
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