Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard

Sithro said:

One thing (amongst quite a few, actually) that I think World of Warcraft did right is that they went for stylized graphics, instead of trying to be realistic.

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More importantly, its fun. And for many (not all as evidenced in some of the posts here), its that combination that Vanguard is lacking. Its dumbfounding how many developers today say "our target audience is.....". Although many might not agree, thats what gave WoW its edge on the mmo market. Thier target was "everyone possible for as long as possible". And they succeeded.

Sigil needs to prioritize. Fix any broken content, focus on what players are complaining about concerning gameplay, THEN worry about prettying up the game for as many as possible. But sink the "fun factor hook" into them first. Because if they"re having enough fun, they"ll hang around for the pretty graphics that will eventually come later. Be it through hardware upgrades on thier end, or optimizations on Sigils.

Nino said:

As objective as I can try to be...

A massive premium was placed on the "overall artistic feel and vision" of Vanguard.

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Then why weren"t any of these concerns addressed in beta? And don"t say it wasn"t known, because there was a large consensus that the world felt sterile, barren, lifeless.. and I am not just talking about mob placement.

Having a huge world so that you can try to mimic nature is nice and all, but when you make it so large that you can"t handcraft it, then the tradeoff is arguably not worth it. I can deal with the transitions between enviroments in WoW much easier because when I am in one environment, I "feel" like I am in that environment. It "feels" like everything else belongs there too. I don"t stand on a line that has one shade of ground meeting another and complain, because those areas are small and insignificant. However when the entire world has edges and seams and objects that seem to float off the ground.. it is unavoidable.

So back to my original question.. if art and feel was such a priority, why has it not been addressed in all these years of development?

Rayne said:

More importantly, its fun. And for many (not all as evidenced in some of the posts here), its that combination that Vanguard is lacking. Its dumbfounding how many developers today say "our target audience is.....". Although many might not agree, thats what gave WoW its edge on the mmo market. Thier target was "everyone possible for as long as possible". And they succeeded.

Sigil needs to prioritize. Fix any broken content, focus on what players are complaining about concerning gameplay, THEN worry about prettying up the game for as many as possible. But sink the "fun factor hook" into them first. Because if they"re having enough fun, they"ll hang around for the pretty graphics that will eventually come later. Be it through hardware upgrades on thier end, or optimizations on Sigils.

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Yeah, the only thing I don"t like about WoW is that you don"t talk to people as much as in other games. I used to love having discussions in group.

But, I suppose that"s what guilds are for.

Sithro said:

Yeah, the only thing I don"t like about WoW is that you don"t talk to people as much as in other games. I used to love having discussions in group.

But, I suppose that"s what guilds are for.

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I can certainly agree with that. But I blame it on the digital millennium. "Talking" doesn"t mean typing into a chat box anymore like it did back in the glory days of early M59, EQ, or AO. Its a literal thing now. Many guilds in WoW fire up a Vent or TS server. Not just for raiding mind you, but for anything. Raids, groups, or just plain everyday chatting to other guildies. I wouldn"t be surprised as this genre grows and expands, that you"ll eventually see the chatbox in a games interface only have a single channel. A global channel. Because every other channel will be replaced by fully enabled voice support.

Install the game.
Search a guild recruitment interface (perhaps auto-joining an npc guild to start).
Join a guild and close the chatbox forever.

Rayne said:

you"ll eventually see the chatbox in a games interface only have a single channel. A global channel. Because every other channel will be replaced by fully enabled voice support.

Install the game.
Search a guild recruitment interface (perhaps auto-joining an npc guild to start).
Join a guild and close the chatbox forever.

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While this might be the way games are heading (doesn"t tabula rasa boast an integrated voice chat?), I hope that day never comes. I can"t stand listening to most of the people who use vent. The voices remind me of how base most mmorpg players really are, and speaking about quests and stupidly pronouncing mob names and acronyms makes me realize how idiotic mmorpgs really are -- the suspension of disbelief is ruined. The white southern middle-aged male types are extremely pathetic, the quiet goth girls are a close second.

Hey Nino, assuming you"re still popping in to read this thread, here"s a quick question: given the problems Everquest II had catching on early due to its hardware requirements as a result of SOE"s "planning for the future" engine decision, what was the reasoning at Sigil behind making the customized of the Unreal engine you guys used so resource-heavy?

woqqqa said:

Hey Nino, assuming you"re still popping in to read this thread, here"s a quick question: given the problems Everquest II had catching on early due to its hardware requirements as a result of SOE"s "planning for the future" engine decision, what was the reasoning at Sigil behind making the customized of the Unreal engine you guys used so resource-heavy?

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I wasn"t here during the first year when that decision was made.

Nino said:

I wasn"t here during the first year when that decision was made.

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But surely there had to be some talk about it later?

tjac said:

the quiet goth girls are a close second.

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Nothing wrong with quiet goth girls. It"s the little frustrated vixens that mess up guilds sweet talking single overweight guys and get every favor possible in-game.

Just like that girl that hangs around pickup basketball games. She always gets picked, and she always gets the ball passed to her no matter how bad she is.

tjac said:

While this might be the way games are heading (doesn"t tabula rasa boast an integrated voice chat?), I hope that day never comes. I can"t stand listening to most of the people who use vent. The voices remind me of how base most mmorpg players really are, and speaking about quests and stupidly pronouncing mob names and acronyms makes me realize how idiotic mmorpgs really are -- the suspension of disbelief is ruined. The white southern middle-aged male types are extremely pathetic, the quiet goth girls are a close second.

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I"m guessing that if games reach this point they will also start including voice manipulation. You can sound like whatever you want to sound like. They could provide a list to choose from. If you play a big race then all of your voice choices would be moderately deep to very deep I suppose. If your character was a petite elf slut then you could pick from girly voices. Might as well include accent choices too. Along with this there could be a connection between what you say and how your character acts. If you type an exclamation in WoW like, "oh shit!" then your character does the ! emote. Imagine if the game could do the same thing based on voice inflection. And to take things a step further why not have real life language translation on the fly.

Not sure how well this could be pulled off, but this is the future we"re talking about. All of this would be a step forward where immersion is concerned. Everything leads to star trek holodecks tho obviously. That"s the ultimate goal here so never forget that.

They already have plug-ins for TS/Vent that change your voice. You can gender switch, be a child or even Darth Vader.

tjac said:

While this might be the way games are heading (doesn"t tabula rasa boast an integrated voice chat?), I hope that day never comes. I can"t stand listening to most of the people who use vent. The voices remind me of how base most mmorpg players really are, and speaking about quests and stupidly pronouncing mob names and acronyms makes me realize how idiotic mmorpgs really are -- the suspension of disbelief is ruined. The white southern middle-aged male types are extremely pathetic, the quiet goth girls are a close second.

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Yes, Tabula Rasa will include fully integrated voice chat. But from what I understand, its only active within the group setting. If there are clan channels or not, i"m not sure.

As far as your concerns go, if integrated voice comm goes mainstream in mmos, it"ll all come down to "accountability". Meaning everyone will be held accountable for thier conduct on specific channels. I"d expect some sort of channel system to evolve, sort of like a /tell system. Whereas when you want to talk privately, a channel would be dynamically created for that purpose. Want to talk to your buddy about your date last night? Move it to a private channel so anyone who doesn"t give a shit doesn"t have to hear about it. Refuse to do so and you"ll likely find yourself catching shit from others.

Its like everything else. Once its mainstream, everyone gets used it.

Rayne said:

Its like everything else. Once its mainstream, everyone gets used to it.

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Not really. If it goes mainstream, I"ll either quit MMOs or just play exclusively with real-life friends. You can"t imagine the number of horrible voices I"ve come across on Vent. Nasal, flat, regional accents that are a bitch to sort out, and one guy who sounded a lot like Kermit the Frog (and I don"t think he was joking around). Listening to people like that all that time would pretty much kill my enjoyment. Also, people in Vent actually say things like "pwn" "w00t" and "lawlz". Uh-uh, I ain"t bitin".

woqqqa said:

Not really. If it goes mainstream, I"ll either quit MMOs or just play exclusively with real-life friends. You can"t imagine the number of horrible voices I"ve come across on Vent. Nasal, flat, regional accents that are a bitch to sort out, and one guy who sounded a lot like Kermit the Frog (and I don"t think he was joking around). Listening to people like that all that time would pretty much kill my enjoyment. Also, people in Vent actually say things like "pwn" "w00t" and "lawlz". Uh-uh, I ain"t bitin".

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While quitting would certainly be your prerogative, I think the voice tone of an otherwise exceptional player is of minimal importance. I play WoW in a guild with a girl with the most annoying voice i"ve ever heard in my life. Honestly, i"d rather listen to a 5 hour sermon from my mother-in-law than to hear this chick speak on vent. Thankfully shes not a raid leader. But shes the best damn rogue i"m yet to play with. And that more than accounts for her annoying voice tone.

Seriously, who the fuck judges people by their voice? You probably sound like some whiny runt hick to everyone else anyway.

I judge people by their voice and how they speak... just about everyone/thing in the animal kingdom does. Tells just about everything about a person.

Anyways, I"m all up for voice integration in MMO"s, though I"m probably in the camp of "don"t make it mandatory." RL Voice ruins atmosphere for me, and reminds me that it"s a game and not an "almost real" world.

What I"d prefer to see first... before full voice integration, are simple, intuitive "voice" menus, akin to Starsiege Tribes, and/or Battlefield 2142. A tiered menu that allows you to say a specific phrase with 2-3 keys and/or mouse movements. Use about 30 base female/male actors to record a bunch of phrases, and then allow users an equalizer for more variation.

EQ2 has alot of voice emotes, but they aren"t refined enough to serve as communication.

Twobit Whore said:

Seriously, who the fuck judges people by their voice? You probably sound like some whiny runt hick to everyone else anyway.

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I don"t know how I sound to others, but if the tone of my voice bothered them, I sure as hell wouldn"t begrudge them turning off Vent. As for judging, who"s judging? I said I can"t stand the sound of their voices...it grates on my nerves. (I also can"t stand the sound of nail files or anyone singing in a soprano...certain sounds and tones just set me off)

If anyones seen the .Hack//sign anime.. I would love something like that!
Probably wont happen for another 20 years though ><

Basicly it"s like real life talking.. if you wanna be private you have to whisper or find some place private.

woqqqa said:

I don"t know how I sound to others, but if the tone of my voice bothered them, I sure as hell wouldn"t begrudge them turning off Vent. As for judging, who"s judging? I said I can"t stand the sound of their voices...it grates on my nerves. (I also can"t stand the sound of nail files or anyone singing in a soprano...certain sounds and tones just set me off)

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Yeah, I can understand that.. but to think you can immediately assess a person"s skill and worth based on their voice over Ventrillo is a bit off. But luckily most of these programs come with individual settings so if someone really grates your nerves, you can turn them down or off. Personally, if I were in a guild that required vent, I think I could deal with an obnoxious voice for the greater good of making shit dead.

Twobit Whore said:

Yeah, I can understand that.. but to think you can immediately assess a person"s skill and worth based on their voice over Ventrillo is a bit off. But luckily most of these programs come with individual settings so if someone really grates your nerves, you can turn them down or off. Personally, if I were in a guild that required vent, I think I could deal with an obnoxious voice for the greater good of making shit dead.

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When did I ever make a statement where I conflated player skill with voices? The Kermit guy was one of the better PvP paladins that I"d ever run across. I"m saying that with Vent being optional in most situations in MMOs that I"ve seen, I can screen out the voices that bug me. If voice chat ever becomes the default and I can"t alter their voices in some way that still makes them fairly comprehensible, I just won"t bother playing.