World of Warcraft: Current Year

Merrith

Merrith

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Vimeseh said:
Sure. I'm fine with raiding being more exclusionary at the entrance level because well as an EQ and since release wow player that's how it was up until roughly cata/mop. Where I agree with Khane is that bosses shouldn't be in the 500 pull range. I mean I cant nail down the exact amount of times my guild pulled any boss in heroic ICC for example. But I'm pretty damn sure the kill pull was never above 100. I think the barrier of entry is too low at the beginning of a raid and much much to high at the end as things currently stand. This is assuming current mythic as a base of course.
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Heroic 25M Lich King wasn't above pull 100? I feel like that would be fairly impressive (although given the progressive buff maybe less so depending on when it happened). I guess I don't mind certain bosses taking those 500 pulls. Figure there would be less now with all of the mods that tell you abilities down to the second and videos galore week 1...but perhaps if it was a major lore boss or end of expansion fight it would make some sense. Tough to measure across the spectrum though, as people going in blind are going to get much less out of their first X number of pulls learning the mechanics and fight while those who come in a little later with access to full vids and strats will be able to skip a large number of learning attempts.
 
Vimeseh

Vimeseh

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Merrith said:
Heroic 25M Lich King wasn't above pull 100? I feel like that would be fairly impressive (although given the progressive buff maybe less so depending on when it happened). I guess I don't mind certain bosses taking those 500 pulls. Figure there would be less now with all of the mods that tell you abilities down to the second and videos galore week 1...but perhaps if it was a major lore boss or end of expansion fight it would make some sense. Tough to measure across the spectrum though, as people going in blind are going to get much less out of their first X number of pulls learning the mechanics and fight while those who come in a little later with access to full vids and strats will be able to skip a large number of learning attempts.
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Yah I dont think even heroic arthas took more or at least much more then that. My guild was the server first guild on a small server so we were never like the super hardcore. We would clear a raid while it was current but we like 99 percent of the good guilds at the time were cribbing our strats from the true elite guilds. Just making adjustments for our composition. So our pulls were skipping the figure it out phase and more on the execution phase of progression raiding for the most part.

The big difference now is that guilds know the strat to kill a boss after the first month and they are still dropping 200-500 pulls on them. If we took in to account execution/discovery pulls for your average 8/8m guild they would be near 1000+.
 
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Merrith said:
Heroic 25M Lich King wasn't above pull 100? I feel like that would be fairly impressive (although given the progressive buff maybe less so depending on when it happened). I guess I don't mind certain bosses taking those 500 pulls. Figure there would be less now with all of the mods that tell you abilities down to the second and videos galore week 1...but perhaps if it was a major lore boss or end of expansion fight it would make some sense. Tough to measure across the spectrum though, as people going in blind are going to get much less out of their first X number of pulls learning the mechanics and fight while those who come in a little later with access to full vids and strats will be able to skip a large number of learning attempts.
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Notification of abilities and timings, for the millionth fucking time, just means they add so many it's hard to keep them all straight. Add some randomness and we get 600 pulls on Kiljaeden. Addons don't play the game for you.
 
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Merrith

Merrith

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a c i d.f l y said:
Notification of abilities and timings, for the millionth fucking time, just means they add so many it's hard to keep them all straight. Add some randomness and we get 600 pulls on Kiljaeden. Addons don't play the game for you.
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They help. That's for sure. A lot better than the way back days mentally subtracting/adding seconds off your ticking debuffs to do calls on some fights. They really help the most when at certain times over the lifespan people's idea of hard mechanics was an instant death ability that becomes super easy to dodge when an alert and Bright Red Letters on your screen announce it for you. Less for the top end players but it really has helped plenty of mediocre ones to get carried over the years, I'm sure not just for guilds I've been in, over various games.
 
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Vimeseh said:
Yah I dont think even heroic arthas took more or at least much more then that. My guild was the server first guild on a small server so we were never like the super hardcore. We would clear a raid while it was current but we like 99 percent of the good guilds at the time were cribbing our strats from the true elite guilds. Just making adjustments for our composition. So our pulls were skipping the figure it out phase and more on the execution phase of progression raiding for the most part.

The big difference now is that guilds know the strat to kill a boss after the first month and they are still dropping 200-500 pulls on them. If we took in to account execution/discovery pulls for your average 8/8m guild they would be near 1000+.
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Avergae mythic clearing guilds wouldn't put 1000+ attempts on any boss. They would farm the current tier until it made the last boss easy enough. They wouldn't put 12 hours in every day with previous tier gear. Without the stress of "world first", why would you slam your dick into the wall like these faggot are doing... for the internet prestige?
 
Merrith

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a c i d.f l y said:
Avergae mythic clearing guilds wouldn't put 1000+ attempts on any boss. They would farm the current tier until it made the last boss easy enough. They wouldn't put 12 hours in every day with previous tier gear. Without the stress of "world first", why would you slam your dick into the wall like these faggot are doing... for the internet prestige?
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How many guilds have actually had World Firsts the past couple expansions? Serious question. I agree with you I can't imagine anyone putting in that time unless they feel like they had a legit shot at it, and you'd assume probably only 3-5 tops would know/believe they had any real chance.
 
Vimeseh

Vimeseh

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a c i d.f l y said:
Avergae mythic clearing guilds wouldn't put 1000+ attempts on any boss. They would farm the current tier until it made the last boss easy enough. They wouldn't put 12 hours in every day with previous tier gear. Without the stress of "world first", why would you slam your dick into the wall like these faggot are doing... for the internet prestige?
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Considering people in this thread have talked about their mid tier guilds putting 500 to 700 pulls on bosses like mistress, kj, and argus last xpac when they knew the strats... I dont think it is so far fetched.

My point wasn't should a guild put that time in anyway. My point was that the bosses are so demanding now that even with the roadmap laid out for you guilds are pulling certain bosses 200 to 500+ times. That wasn't a thing when I raided at a decent level. You weren't dropping 300 pulls on lurker below or putricide.

Like with this dbm discussion that just cropped up. G'huun has 25 unique abilities/mechanics on mythic. Heroic Lich king had like ten. The penultimate boss of a franchise up to that point had less then half the abilities of an entry level end raid boss.
 
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Some guilds pull that much (very, very small percentage), but I promise you the average hardcore player would tell this game to fuck itself after 100 pulls. At least I would. I don't have time to brute force, wait for the stars to align, hope for everyone not to fuck up or rando shit, all in the hopes for a kill. Which is literally what method and limit and whatever else are doing with these first week world first end boss kills. And good for them, they're getting "paid" to play 12 hours a day. 10 years ago folks would play that much just to prep for raids. Not sure which side of that coin is better...
 
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xzi said:
Ragnaros had
uh
fuckin uh

auto attack?
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Splash damage requiring melee to back up. Ranged attacks that required proper spacing to reduce aoe damage, and positioning not to get knocked into the lava. Also submerge phase. I'd assume difficulty would ramp up naturally, addons have exacerbated that. Encounters now are still what they've always been, just every mechanic is included. Stand in this, don't stand in that, group up, spread out, line up, run in, run out, as a group do this or that... Complexity seems to have hit a cap with the limit to what addons can do.

Other games don't stack this level of complexity of course because they don't allow addons. Whether that's a good or bad thing is debatable.
 
Vimeseh

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I'd say bad considering recent raiding feels like in spend more time fighting my ui then the boss.

10 seconds to dot 1
7 seconds to dot 2
5 seconds to void zone
4 seconds to group
1 second to anal lube one shot soak.
 
Merrith

Merrith

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Vimeseh said:
You weren't dropping 300 pulls on lurker below or putricide.
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Just had to chuckle at this for a second. Massive difference between even lurker below and 10M heroic Putricide (let alone 25M H). Putricide sort of qualifies for a special tier of boss being end boss of his wing, but only final 2 bosses in ICC would be on that level you'd expect to be a ton of pulls anyways.
 
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Vimeseh

Vimeseh

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I was really just dropping names. Putricide could be equated to mistress from ToS as end wing bosses. From this forum and multiple other forums/people I talked to a bunch of guilds were dropping 200+ attempts on her. A couple in the 500+ range. It was obscene.
 
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Merrith

Merrith

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Vimeseh said:
I was really just dropping names. Putricide could be equated to mistress from ToS as end wing bosses. From this forum and multiple other forums/people I talked to a bunch of guilds were dropping 200+ attempts on her. A couple in the 500+ range. It was obscene.
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Yeah it was just a funny two to pull out of a hat. Leotheras would have been a decent comparison to Putricide, although not the same multi wing end wing boss setup. Also a great fight in its time.

From Khane's postings I gather ToS was a very shitty raid tier.
 
Vimeseh

Vimeseh

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Putricide was probably my favorite fight in ICC. Well that or the vamp queen for pure numbers since I was an mm hunter gemmed for full armor pen. The numbers you could bust out on her as first bite were just great.

ToS was indeed shit. Every fight was in a small circular room for the most part. Almost every fight had an insta wipe soak mechanic and KJ might be the most overtuned end boss of all time with the most heinous RNG. Its telling in raid design when people kill a boss enough times to get their core the title then never kill him again. Those are just some of the mechanical problems with the raid. Ever wanted to play guitar hero in wow? Me neither.

From a thematic point of view they just didn't do the tomb justice. I mean people have wanted to go there in WoW for more then a decade and we get some naga and dead elves in stock setting.
 
Merrith

Merrith

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Vimeseh said:
Putricide was probably my favorite fight in ICC. Well that or the vamp queen for pure numbers since I was an mm hunter gemmed for full armor pen. The numbers you could bust out on her as first bite were just great.

ToS was indeed shit. Every fight was in a small circular room for the most part. Almost every fight had an insta wipe soak mechanic and KJ might be the most overtuned end boss of all time with the most heinous RNG. Its telling in raid design when people kill a boss enough times to get their core the title then never kill him again. Those are just some of the mechanical problems with the raid. Ever wanted to play guitar hero in wow? Me neither.

From a thematic point of view they just didn't do the tomb justice. I mean people have wanted to go there in WoW for more then a decade and we get some naga and dead elves in stock setting.
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Yeah by that point in Wrath I had enough armor pen to swap to MM. My brother was a mage and we always battled for first bite off Blood Queen. Putricide was probably the best fight in ICC, though.

That's a shame, b/c ToS obviously a big lore spot. Kind of surprised it didn't end up final raid for the Legion expansion although sounds like for good reason.
 
xzi

xzi

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Merrith said:
From Khane's postings I gather ToS was a very shitty raid tier.
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I stopped at Maiden, cause the guild died I was raiding with.. but the problem with ToS mythic (and heroic to be honest) was one single player having a fuck up or lag could ruin a 6 minute pull for the entire raid. There was no recovering. Maiden even more than mistress, if one single player fucked up colors or when they were soaking for any reason at all the entire raid dies immediately.

I'm glad they haven't designed any fights like any of that stupid shit since then
 
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