World of Warcraft: Current Year

Nirgon

YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE
12,893
19,818
NOBODY WANTS TO DO REP GRINDS. HOW MANY TIMES DOES THIS NEED TO BE POUNDED INTO MMO DEVS HEADS?
Would you rather farm resist gear? Really, I only had to farm one staple resist set in EQ but it was minorly upgraded (which became mandatory for members to do) with Velium jewelry. Frog crown, cloak of ice bear (yeah white dragon cloaks, but this was on live EQ not the 5-6 years of Kunark on p99) etc carried through and you really only hadta do it once.

People (Joe General) went ape shit I think over having to farm nature resist gear for AQ. There's repeatable content that's fun (arenas and world pvp for me) and repeatable content that sucks (battlegrounds 90% of the time). You do have to have some kind of repeatable content in your game. Maybe a resist gear farm could rear its head again and be valuable throughout the xpac and upgradeable as you go. Find ways to enjoy doing this repeatable stuff like challenging yourself with a fun to play yet less viable spec.

The one good "repeatable" thing imo, is farming ingredients for consumables while content isn't on EZ-farm status which goes away as you get the fights down. I think having to gather materials of some kind to prep for progression is good design. I'm sure a thousand shit pies and rotten vegetables will be thrown my way for this comment. But it's also I'd rather they spend more time making quality raid content and stapling in resource farming than taking time out of making raid content to make fun progression required by each individual. But maybe they make enough money and have the resources to do both. I'm not them and even though I'd run my gaming company more like an artist than a businessman... you gotta draw the line somewhere. Another thought on this, is something the dumbs can be required to farm that will give them the edge to take a few extra ticks from the raid wide dot, or their dispels heal too to make up for them being slower on the draw. You're trying to play at a more relaxed pace on raids? Okay, go farm all this shit on your own time to buff yourself for the fights in advance. But of course we all know how trying to get the slackers to farm their own shit goes. It doesn't fit in with their "play to have fun" model :p. I personally think having all my consumables and ducks in a row to beat some progression content is fun, but I'm not a flake when it comes to this shit either. I'd also be way more forgiving if the guy that couldn't get his shit straight every week farmed a few potions to keep him alive to make up for it.

Enough from me; if you're tired of this, what should they have instead?
 

Dom_sl

shitlord
266
0
You guys clearly had much different vanilla experiences. Trying to get people to run most of those long dungeons was like trying to pull teeth. Having to do dozens of Onyxia key quest runs soured the zone, as well as 40 man clears to zone into MC. Also, if you weren't a rogue or warrior, no one wanted to invest time for an Emp run.
Sure, it was a PITA to get a group together for them, but when it did happen, the experience was so much better for it. You end up connecting with the people you drag into there. I have more fond memories about leading newer players from Ironforge all the way to Tirisfal to get them to SM pre meeting stones than I do from all the LFD dungeons I've done since it was implemented. I also have a lot of memories of teaching people the right paths to take in Sunken Temple, and the statue order etc... The difficulties and bullshit involved with the old designs gave people reason to talk and connect. Now I just get into a random, do my respective duty, and leave when it's done. The only time a conversation happens is when someone rocks the boat by fucking up and gets shit on for it.

Let me be clear, I do not dislike LFD in any way. I do however want some fucking interesting shit to go on inside of the dungeons that provokes connecting with my groupmates other than "tank, wrong stance" or "WTF dude?" or "BRB Bio"
 

Sabbat

Trakanon Raider
1,834
760
Sure, it was a PITA to get a group together for them, but when it did happen, the experience was like sanding your teeth with an angle grinder.
Trying to do BRD for the Onyxia key chain was one of the most soul crushing events I've had to endure in WoW. That fucking loop around the prison you had to clear, backtrack and then escort the NPC was both not fun, and took over an hour for the dual loop, very often closer to two hours with dipshits that couldn't CC and DPS that fucking blew chunks. Being a tank during the time, saw me do this same boring shit over and over and over again so that little Timmy's best mate could replace greens with epics during our Onyxia raids.

You want to know why Scholomance (I cleared this shit 5 man before they removed the raid tag on the zone, and removed a bunch of shit), Scarlet Monastery and Stratholme were awesome in your memories? Because you don't have to run them any more. Little Timmy will never get to experience the uphill in the snow dungeons you did. Those memories of the zone during that time will STAY that way, because those zones are no longer even recognisable from those of us that did them way back when. Those zones and memories are unique. The next time you LFD Scholo, talk in party about the whelp room, or how Jandice use to be and you'll get a variety of responses from "cool story bro" to "man, that shit was fucking epic", and that's how it should be.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,557
50,824
Best part about sunken temple was getting to Jammalan and realizing you somehow missed one of the named dudes you needed to kill to get into his room. FUUUUUUUUUUU
 

niss_sl

shitlord
281
1
Would you rather farm resist gear? Really, I only had to farm one staple resist set in EQ but it was minorly upgraded (which became mandatory for members to do) with Velium jewelry. Frog crown, cloak of ice bear (yeah white dragon cloaks, but this was on live EQ not the 5-6 years of Kunark on p99) etc carried through and you really only hadta do it once.

People (Joe General) went ape shit I think over having to farm nature resist gear for AQ. There's repeatable content that's fun (arenas and world pvp for me) and repeatable content that sucks (battlegrounds 90% of the time). You do have to have some kind of repeatable content in your game. Maybe a resist gear farm could rear its head again and be valuable throughout the xpac and upgradeable as you go. Find ways to enjoy doing this repeatable stuff like challenging yourself with a fun to play yet less viable spec.

The one good "repeatable" thing imo, is farming ingredients for consumables while content isn't on EZ-farm status which goes away as you get the fights down. I think having to gather materials of some kind to prep for progression is good design. I'm sure a thousand shit pies and rotten vegetables will be thrown my way for this comment. But it's also I'd rather they spend more time making quality raid content and stapling in resource farming than taking time out of making raid content to make fun progression required by each individual. But maybe they make enough money and have the resources to do both. I'm not them and even though I'd run my gaming company more like an artist than a businessman... you gotta draw the line somewhere. Another thought on this, is something the dumbs can be required to farm that will give them the edge to take a few extra ticks from the raid wide dot, or their dispels heal too to make up for them being slower on the draw. You're trying to play at a more relaxed pace on raids? Okay, go farm all this shit on your own time to buff yourself for the fights in advance. But of course we all know how trying to get the slackers to farm their own shit goes. It doesn't fit in with their "play to have fun" model :p. I personally think having all my consumables and ducks in a row to beat some progression content is fun, but I'm not a flake when it comes to this shit either. I'd also be way more forgiving if the guy that couldn't get his shit straight every week farmed a few potions to keep him alive to make up for it.

Enough from me; if you're tired of this, what should they have instead?
The problem with farming resist gear wasn't the farming but the fact is that you farmed it for a specific fight and never used it again. The shitty gear you used for ragnaros you never used in any other fight. The should have added the resist stats on normal progression gear so that you don't have farm shit on the side (ex. nature resist shit on BWL sets).
 

meStevo

I think your wife's a bigfoot gus.
<Silver Donator>
6,395
4,663
I really don't mind many of the revamps, having just played through the redone SM dungeons for the first time a couple of weeks ago, plenty of nostalgia there as you bust through a wall in GY and are now in the cathedral.

Would love to see Karazhan, UBRS reworked into relevance.
 

spronk

FPS noob
22,768
26,013
Its a diminishing returns problem, so much of the playerbase has never done anything in vanilla, tbc, or even wrath so it wouldn't mean a lot. I think a lot of people on here really underestimate how much the turnover in wow is, in my zerg invite guild a huuuuuuge chunk of players level one or two characters to 90 and then quit the game, literally the day they stop logging in is the same day they hit 90.

All the stuff the rest of us think are shitty/boring/repetitive, they never even see once. Its gotta be really shitty for MMO designers, build all this stuff you think can keep players entertained for weeks if not months and probably a majority just never even do any of it. A lot of stuff they are doing in mop (how to get players to play more but shorter sessions, cross realm/single server, varying progression paths) feels like experiments with a live market for Titan ideas.
 

Cybsled

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
16,568
13,071
The problem with farming resist gear wasn't the farming but the fact is that you farmed it for a specific fight and never used it again. The shitty gear you used for ragnaros you never used in any other fight. The should have added the resist stats on normal progression gear so that you don't have farm shit on the side (ex. nature resist shit on BWL sets).
The tier sets used to have resists baked into them, but the resists were never high enough to take the place of gear itemized to be almost purely resist.
 

pablos

Lord Nagafen Raider
115
135
this is most likely a dumb a question but is there a server where the majority of the people on this board play, or are we all scattered on different servers?
 

LadyVex_sl

shitlord
868
0
Would you rather farm resist gear? Really, I only had to farm one staple resist set in EQ but it was minorly upgraded (which became mandatory for members to do) with Velium jewelry. Frog crown, cloak of ice bear (yeah white dragon cloaks, but this was on live EQ not the 5-6 years of Kunark on p99) etc carried through and you really only hadta do it once.

People (Joe General) went ape shit I think over having to farm nature resist gear for AQ. There's repeatable content that's fun (arenas and world pvp for me) and repeatable content that sucks (battlegrounds 90% of the time). You do have to have some kind of repeatable content in your game. Maybe a resist gear farm could rear its head again and be valuable throughout the xpac and upgradeable as you go. Find ways to enjoy doing this repeatable stuff like challenging yourself with a fun to play yet less viable spec.

The one good "repeatable" thing imo, is farming ingredients for consumables while content isn't on EZ-farm status which goes away as you get the fights down. I think having to gather materials of some kind to prep for progression is good design. I'm sure a thousand shit pies and rotten vegetables will be thrown my way for this comment. But it's also I'd rather they spend more time making quality raid content and stapling in resource farming than taking time out of making raid content to make fun progression required by each individual. But maybe they make enough money and have the resources to do both. I'm not them and even though I'd run my gaming company more like an artist than a businessman... you gotta draw the line somewhere. Another thought on this, is something the dumbs can be required to farm that will give them the edge to take a few extra ticks from the raid wide dot, or their dispels heal too to make up for them being slower on the draw. You're trying to play at a more relaxed pace on raids? Okay, go farm all this shit on your own time to buff yourself for the fights in advance. But of course we all know how trying to get the slackers to farm their own shit goes. It doesn't fit in with their "play to have fun" model :p. I personally think having all my consumables and ducks in a row to beat some progression content is fun, but I'm not a flake when it comes to this shit either. I'd also be way more forgiving if the guy that couldn't get his shit straight every week farmed a few potions to keep him alive to make up for it.

Enough from me; if you're tired of this, what should they have instead?
Ok, there are a lot of misconceptions in this post so I'm going to be thorough.

1) The issue with resist gear was that you needed it for two fucking fights in AQ (huhuran, which was tanks/hunters and maybe rogues, and then whoever was the "soaker" for when c'thun's eye beam when you entered the room) and the majority of the gear came from maraudon. Do you have any idea how asinine that was? I mean, thank god the green dragons were out for awhile, and our guild had all 4 spawns on lockdown so all the required people had the crazy NR ring, and a few other pieces, but my NR set as a hunter was mostly from maraudon. All roads lead to MC -> BWL -> Maraudon -> AQ40? What?

2) Repeatable shit is fine, but the issue is that repeatable shit SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY. That's why dailies were such a hit in TBC and the like. Ogri'la/Sha'tari/Netherwing; they did SHIT ALL for you except mounts, pets, tabards and a few items. If you didn't farm them, no one cared. If you did farm them, you netted extra stuff, as well as vanity items. Shattered Sun rep stepped it up a bit, by giving decent gems (admittedly they were pvp based) and access to a new vendor. The difference was it unlocked things you might consider necessary early on (like the armor vendor, certain recipes) and anything past honored was mostly just flavor. Granted, northrend and cata introduced reps that most of us considered necessary - helm and shoulder enchants etc, but you had a lot of quests leading into that rep, as well as only one or two factions with dailies that required it. Easy peasy.

What they should have done instead was not tie armor gear to vendors. Keep the old model of reps only being tied to flavor items OR certain items unlockable early. When you did Guardians of Hyjal, at friendly/honored/revered/exalted you unlocked an armor item for most specs/armor types, whose ilvl progressively got better. It wasn't VP/JP armor, it was just tied to that rep. So if you got it, hey good for you, that's one less armor you have to spend JP/VP on. Didn't get it? No probs; other than Therazane you were perfectly fine not really fucking with them. Recipes were obtained by spending mats and not an eternity doing dailies. Have JP/VP bind to account, NOT character, so at the very least when you do heroics/dailies for alts, you can still max out valor on your main. Allow recipes to BOA as well. We have this technology now, why are we picking and choosing what we apply it to? Scale back dailies, or increase rep for each daily. Let things like coins not duplicate items and allow you to set the spec you want to coin for. (Don't want to go in as a sub par dps but want dps gear? Go in as an epic geared healer, your coins grant you dps gear, bam.)

Also, the dailies how they were presented is wrong. I would have bitched less, and not cared as much had every rep been 3 quests a day for 500 rep each. You could have done every rep for the amount of time it took you to do golden lotus in it's entirety.

The other issue is how reputations were handled. Don't we remember in the past, how things necessary unlocked between friendly-honored, and the flavor items (other than heroic keys in TBC, which they scaled back on) at revered-exalted? How those reps were gained as soon as you entered the zone. Honor Hold/Thrallmar? Hellfire quests, then hellfire dungeons. They followed this pattern forever.

What you have is the very WORST situation in both respects; dailies that are necessary and reputation that gates things far into the rep where your only way to gain it is via dailies.

And then, to have them say, hey we know this xpac is hard on alts now. Really? Just NOW? So 4 xpacs later and 8 years, and you don't think most people have alts? So everyone does the same grind? Whattt?

You're not getting it. They're pulling the wool over your eyes; you're accepting it for some ungodly reason.

I'm sad because this is a new direction they're heading in, because they took all those years prior, and went back on promises, and ideas that fixed things people were bitching about. You grind valor endlessly. You grind rep endlessly. Your alts will grind it. It's like a loop of stupidity that if you give a shit about wow you'll do, and therein lies the deviancy. I can't even talk because here I am leveling my priest to hit 90 and do golden lotus/august celestials/shado pan so I can be an enchant mule again.

It's a shit idea, and people keep making excuses for it.

Disclaimer: I received a bunch of collector's boxes of chimay beer for xmas so my ire is probably exaggerated due to intoxication. Apologies.
 

Dom_sl

shitlord
266
0
Trying to do BRD for the Onyxia key chain was one of the most soul crushing events I've had to endure in WoW. That fucking loop around the prison you had to clear, backtrack and then escort the NPC was both not fun, and took over an hour for the dual loop, very often closer to two hours with dipshits that couldn't CC and DPS that fucking blew chunks. Being a tank during the time, saw me do this same boring shit over and over and over again so that little Timmy's best mate could replace greens with epics during our Onyxia raids.

You want to know why Scholomance (I cleared this shit 5 man before they removed the raid tag on the zone, and removed a bunch of shit), Scarlet Monastery and Stratholme were awesome in your memories? Because you don't have to run them any more. Little Timmy will never get to experience the uphill in the snow dungeons you did. Those memories of the zone during that time will STAY that way, because those zones are no longer even recognisable from those of us that did them way back when. Those zones and memories are unique. The next time you LFD Scholo, talk in party about the whelp room, or how Jandice use to be and you'll get a variety of responses from "cool story bro" to "man, that shit was fucking epic", and that's how it should be.
I can't speak for the Alliance Ony keying, but I was the guy responsible for getting people in my Horde guild keyed, which involved traveling the entire fucking world killing dragons/finding Rexxar/Multiple UBRS runs etc... And it fucking sucked at the time. It was boring, it was monotonous, and it made me hate the design, but at least I fucking remember the experience of it and it made me feel a connection with my guildmates.

Yeah, nostalgia means that I view the dungeons in a much different way than someone who didn't have the same experiences will, but at least they gave me something to be nostalgic about. The current dungeon designs, combined with LFD, combined with the anti-social nature of most WoW players means I will not remember a fucking thing about any of it. It's too smooth an experience, requiring no thought other than avoid this/dps that.

I just returned to WoW for another time and I get into Stormstout Brewery, and Temple of the Jade Serpent via LFD. Nobody said a word, nobody asked a question, nobody interacted with anyone else in the group other than the tank telling the lock to fuck off for taking aggro. I will not remember that experience.

I'm no massochist, I'm not seeking torturous boring game design, but some thinking required goes a long way. Difficulty provides value and accomplishment along the "journey" that results in all of it being worth a lot more.
 

Aaron

Goonsquad Officer
<Bronze Donator>
8,182
18,231
I miss the old SM dungeons - except for Graveyard. After having leveled up 3 toons entirely via the dungeon finder (1 tank, 2 healers) the Graveyard is where toons go to die. For something like 1-2 levels that is the ONLY dungeon it queues you for, and as it's over in 10 minutes you needed to run it LOTS of times to get to the next tier of dungeons.

I also miss the sprawling old dungeons, as others have mentioned. In a good group they were the most fun and rewarding things to do in the game. Although if you happened to land with a bunch of idiots it could be hell, but then you just ported out and went and played on another toon for 30 minutes.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
7,979
9,696
Maybe a resist gear farm could rear its head again and be valuable throughout the xpac and upgradeable as you go.
The problem with Resist Gear, and the backlash against it was that resist gear was 1) valuable only for its resist, 2) obtainable only by grinding trivial content (barring the very rare resist from world bosses).

At the time, there was no real alternative to do resist gear, but the WoW arsenal is a bit bigger, and you can nowadays design "resist gear". It's simple: add a conversion mechanism that let you convert gear to resist gear and back. And you have two such conversion mechanisms: enchantments and gems. Have your resistance gems be prismatic, and design specific gear with 3 yellow sockets (ok, not these days with MoP, where yellow is the new red for a lot of classes, due to double whammy on secondary gem stats). This gear is the new "resist gear". Lots of sockets for resistance (and less base stats). And if you're no longer raiding this? Put standard gems back in and you can still use it for the next tier (or replace the resists because we're moving from Fire resist needed to Disease resist this tier).

(of course, some people will complain that they "need" to swap gems between combat. Well, duh, bring two sets of gear like before?)

But I don't think Blizzard wants specialized gear anymore. They're more of in a +gooderer design rut...
 

Sabbat

Trakanon Raider
1,834
760
I just returned to WoW for another time and I get into Stormstout Brewery, and Temple of the Jade Serpent via LFD. Nobody said a word, nobody asked a question, nobody interacted with anyone else in the group other than the tank telling the lock to fuck off for taking aggro.I will not remember that experience.
And yet you've managed to recount the incident and know that it was a warlock that pulled threat and got bitched it. It's a very fine line between remembering something, and remembering something fondly.

I've got guys in my guild that rave on and on about how awesome it was to do runs in Cata heroics as a team and all the fun they had doing achievements. These guys never played vanilla, but still seem to remember (with a fondness) for the first of the dungeons they explored. Do you see a pattern developing here? Surely you must understand that sometimes things have to be laid to rest (manastone anyone?) so they become immortalised in peoples memories?

I know I rarely talk in heroics, it's quite often more drama than it's worth. Did the same in most EQ camps and just chatted in guild. I'd only ever start talking in party chat when some dumb cunt would break my mezzes constantly.
 

Caeden

Silver Baronet of the Realm
7,388
11,994
I started in TBC so I know what you mean. I spend hours in vent jerking off on the old Shattered Halls and Shadow Labs heroic runs. I think Shattered Halls, Black Morass, and Kara were the only instances back then that made me feel like a god playing a protection paladin. I guess adds on Tidewalker and Hyjal trash. Sadly guild blew up in Hyjal/Bt and I took a break until Wrath

I play on Runetotem (US) horde which is about dead but my few friends still playing are there.
 

PatrickStar

Trakanon Raider
1,529
558
This is what my WoW experience has devolved to. I look forward to every resets on Tuesdays. Why? That's when I can solo old raids again or grab a few buddies and guildmates to run through some of the harder ones in 2-4 man groups for transmorg, legendary, or just plain oldtimes sake. THe most fun I've had in the expansion was finally finishing a Thunderfury 8 years later. Yep, World of Warcraft everybody!

Oh and I should say pet battles too. So to recap, nostalgia and Pokemon. However, one important note is that both have something in common - interaction with actual people. When you're doing old raids with buddies on vent or battling pets what you're really doing is experiencing social interaction. Even with the Thunderfury, I had a friend I met in WoW during Vanilla that tagged alone for the last fight in Silithus, because and I quote, "I remember when you'd drag my ass to do Dire Maul North to heal you for that Quel book that never dropped and you'd scream 'fuck you Nat Pagle' everytime and I wanted to be here." 8 years, 1/4 of my life I've known this guy and never met him. Yet despite that in an MMO we can still share a cool moment. That's what it's all about.
 

Dom_sl

shitlord
266
0
And yet you've managed to recount the incident and know that it was a warlock that pulled threat and got bitched it. It's a very fine line between remembering something, and remembering something fondly.
It was within 24 fucking hours of it happening, of course I remembered it. I'm talking about nostalgia and the significance of shit staying with you, not something that fell within a timeframe that a goldfish could remember.
 

branthor_sl

shitlord
6
0
I miss the interaction with the zone and the dungeons within the story of the zone. Just being able to teleport and have quests waiting for you inside ruins why your there. Its all about the loot and the XP and nothing about the story.