World of Warcraft: Current Year

Dandai_sl said:

Assuming you aren't using any of the catchup mechanics they've implemented since vanilla, then the only reason it would be faster is because they streamlined the quest hubs and you never run out of level appropriate quests. The amount of time it takes to go from 1-90 is within 5-10 hours of the amount of time it took to go 1-60 in vanilla.

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Nah, its definitely faster to get from 1-90 than it was to get to 1-60. I used to level race all the time on fresh servers in Vanilla and the fastest we got it down to pre-xp nerf was just under 5 days played. You can get to 90 now in about 2 days played, without any xp boosts besides the guild xp bonus...which is essentially universal these days.

As for the video, I agree wholeheartedly that this is one of the biggest factors to WoW's demise is the accessibility of content. There's no "wow" (excuse the pun) factor anymore that feeds into the whole psychology of the fantasy genre to begin with. There are no deep, dark, dangerous dungeons anymore. LFR is just the newst iteration of the problem that began when they started Scarlet-Monestarying (SM'ing) all the 5mans begining in TBC. It all goes back to my immersion-is-king theory and WoW is failing pretty hard at that when it comes to the content other than the outdoor leveling zones.

I think you guys are way off in why WoW is declining... Nothing Blizzard is doing is causing WoW to burn up - it's a change in the larger market.

Look at the games that are big hits now with kids. They're games like League of Legends, Call of Duty, Dungeon Fighter Online (very big in China), Halo, Puzzles and Dragons, MineCraft, etc. These are games that areintrinsically fun. People aren't playing these games to "get anywhere" - they're playing them because they actually enjoy the session. They're not playing to get anything.

WoW's mechanics just aren't fun anymore. Leveling 1-85 is the most boring piece-of-shit ever. The combat is the same the whole way through. There's 0 sense of challenge. It never gets different. It never changes. When you try to get someone into WoW, you're mostly telling them "just get to 90, that's when the fun part starts." Then you'll tell them "just go through the dungeon grind, that's when the fun part starts." You spend several nights of terrible wiping just for that one new boss kill that's redeeming and awesome.

You can see this all over MMO culture. Have you ever played an MMO and heard someone say "you've got toworkfor it"? To the new, younger gamers, that concept is fucking insane. WORKING inside of a game that's supposed to be fun?

The next generation of gamers is completely intolerant of the concept of a "grind." They want stuff that is fun, and the moment it becomes not-fun, they stop playing it.

Having all that said, WoW's decline is because the MMO-market has grown up and stopped having time for 2+ hour sessions. They've graduated college, gotten married, started families, etc. And no one is filling their shoes - younger gamers just don't get MMOs. They'd rather play session-based games that are genuinely fun and present a real challenge.

Cool video that talks about some of this:http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/epi...c-or-extrinsic

MattEnth_sl said:

They'd rather play session-based games that are genuinely fun and present a real challenge.

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So much hypocrisy in that sentence I dunno where to begin.

Edit: and that video is one reason why the industry is so terrible.

Dumar_sl said:

So much hypocrisy in that sentence I dunno where to begin.

Edit: and that video is one reason why the industry is so terrible.

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Okay, well, if that's the sentence you're going to stick to, let me rephrase it slightly...

The next generation of gamers wants games that are intrinsically fun - games that are based in mechanics that consistently offer opportunities for mastery or expression.

MMOs no longer fill that niche - they're trivial to feel like you've attained a sense of mastery (since during the lvl 1-85 grind, you're rarely going to die), and as a game of expression, other games have better outlets.




The sentence I hope you'd attach to:

The next generation of gamers is wholly unaccepting of any "grind" or "work" in the games they chose to play.

Honestly, if the game was fun, I would play it. I just feel like they've systematically killed the things I liked in an attempt to become accessible. Sure they've added cool stuff, but it seems to be nice side dishes to a disappointing main course.

MattEnth_sl said:

I think you guys are way off in why WoW is declining... Nothing Blizzard is doing is causing WoW to burn up - it's a change in the larger market.

Look at the games that are big hits now with kids. They're games like League of Legends, Call of Duty, Dungeon Fighter Online (very big in China), Halo, Puzzles and Dragons, MineCraft, etc. These are games that areintrinsically fun. People aren't playing these games to "get anywhere" - they're playing them because they actually enjoy the session. They're not playing to get anything.

WoW's mechanics just aren't fun anymore. Leveling 1-85 is the most boring piece-of-shit ever. The combat is the same the whole way through. There's 0 sense of challenge. It never gets different. It never changes. When you try to get someone into WoW, you're mostly telling them "just get to 90, that's when the fun part starts." Then you'll tell them "just go through the dungeon grind, that's when the fun part starts." You spend several nights of terrible wiping just for that one new boss kill that's redeeming and awesome.

You can see this all over MMO culture. Have you ever played an MMO and heard someone say "you've got toworkfor it"? To the new, younger gamers, that concept is fucking insane. WORKING inside of a game that's supposed to be fun?

The next generation of gamers is completely intolerant of the concept of a "grind." They want stuff that is fun, and the moment it becomes not-fun, they stop playing it.

Having all that said, WoW's decline is because the MMO-market has grown up and stopped having time for 2+ hour sessions. They've graduated college, gotten married, started families, etc. And no one is filling their shoes - younger gamers just don't get MMOs. They'd rather play session-based games that are genuinely fun and present a real challenge.

Cool video that talks about some of this:http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/epi...c-or-extrinsic

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I cant say that I disagree with most of your post was really spot on for the current status of the MMO market at the moment.

MattEnth_sl said:

I think you guys are way off in why WoW is declining... Nothing Blizzard is doing is causing WoW to burn up - it's a change in the larger market.

Look at the games that are big hits now with kids. They're games like League of Legends, Call of Duty, Dungeon Fighter Online (very big in China), Halo, Puzzles and Dragons, MineCraft, etc. These are games that areintrinsically fun. People aren't playing these games to "get anywhere" - they're playing them because they actually enjoy the session. They're not playing to get anything.

WoW's mechanics just aren't fun anymore. Leveling 1-85 is the most boring piece-of-shit ever. The combat is the same the whole way through. There's 0 sense of challenge. It never gets different. It never changes. When you try to get someone into WoW, you're mostly telling them "just get to 90, that's when the fun part starts." Then you'll tell them "just go through the dungeon grind, that's when the fun part starts." You spend several nights of terrible wiping just for that one new boss kill that's redeeming and awesome.

You can see this all over MMO culture. Have you ever played an MMO and heard someone say "you've got toworkfor it"? To the new, younger gamers, that concept is fucking insane. WORKING inside of a game that's supposed to be fun?

The next generation of gamers is completely intolerant of the concept of a "grind." They want stuff that is fun, and the moment it becomes not-fun, they stop playing it.

Having all that said, WoW's decline is because the MMO-market has grown up and stopped having time for 2+ hour sessions. They've graduated college, gotten married, started families, etc. And no one is filling their shoes - younger gamers just don't get MMOs. They'd rather play session-based games that are genuinely fun and present a real challenge.

Cool video that talks about some of this:http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/epi...c-or-extrinsic

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This right here is the best post in the whole thread about why MMOs are declining. Us posters here, pining for that next big MMO are a dying breed I believe, although that does not mean there won't be more great MMOs of some sort to come out. The thing is, whatever the next big MMO is, it won't be based on the grinding bullshit that we have been doing since EQ, it'll be something outside the box. It's exactly like he said,people are playing things like Minecraft for hundreds of hours because its fun! Apostolos one day just goes "HOLY SHIT IM GONNA BUILD THE BIGGEST FUCKING CHURCH EVER! WHY? bECAUSE FUCK YOU!" Seriously, he had no incentive to build that other than that it was fun and he knew the server could always go away, just like I have known for my MC structures, and everyone else. It's new and exciting and who the hell knows what can be created next. But then you still have shitheads making games like Elder Scrolls Online and you immediately know what it'll be like....grinding for hours to level up to max level. We've been doing that shit for YEARS and NO ONE enjoys it anymore!

Fucking A. Great posts. Grind and "time sink" is the stupidest fucking challenge. Reminds me of working on my PhD. When it became obvious it was all about time spent and politics and hoops, I said fuck that and quadrupled my pay with a masters. Figure if I have to do the same shit, might as well make some real money.

Hats off to those who are willing to do it, just don't expect me to kiss your ass

Saladus_sl said:

This right here is the best post in the whole thread about why MMOs are declining. Us posters here, pining for that next big MMO are a dying breed I believe, although that does not mean there won't be more great MMOs of some sort to come out. The thing is, whatever the next big MMO is, it won't be based on the grinding bullshit that we have been doing since EQ, it'll be something outside the box. It's exactly like he said,people are playing things like Minecraft for hundreds of hours because its fun! Apostolos one day just goes "HOLY SHIT IM GONNA BUILD THE BIGGEST FUCKING CHURCH EVER! WHY? bECAUSE FUCK YOU!" Seriously, he had no incentive to build that other than that it was fun and he knew the server could always go away, just like I have known for my MC structures, and everyone else. It's new and exciting and who the hell knows what can be created next. But then you still have shitheads making games like Elder Scrolls Online and you immediately know what it'll be like....grinding for hours to level up to max level. We've been doing that shit for YEARS and NO ONE enjoys it anymore!

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Or maybe...they do?!

Spending 100s of hours playing sand castles is inherently more gay than doing big in mmos. It's the guitar hero of creativity.

That vid is wrong because the core design focus of MMO's is the living, breathing world, one that is as alive as possible. Part of 'alive' is tedium: taking a boat, dying at the bottom of Befallen, watching a character grow slowly, or, even regress.

Those objective facts about gameplay mechanicsmake the world more believable. If it were even possible to make every single moment in an MMO a completely fun experience,the believability of the world itself would suffer. It wouldn't make consistent sense because dying would be fun - even if you could design it as such, I wouldn't want it to be. Negative mechanics exist for a reason, and especially they should exist in this genre.

This genre is not about occupying my mind with mindless entertainment parlor game-ish type fun for 2 hours a day. That's not what an MMO should provide. That's what Farmville is for. An MMO should provide an immersive escape into a different world, one that is believable and consistent with its rules. If the younger generation doesn't want that, then they shouldn't be playing them. Unfortunately, the devs in this industry, being as terrible as they are, design to them and every other living, breathing person on the planet.

MattEnth_sl said:

Okay, well, if that's the sentence you're going to stick to, let me rephrase it slightly...

The next generation of gamers wants games that are intrinsically fun - games that are based in mechanics that consistently offer opportunities for mastery or expression.

MMOs no longer fill that niche - they're trivial to feel like you've attained a sense of mastery (since during the lvl 1-85 grind, you're rarely going to die), and as a game of expression, other games have better outlets.




The sentence I hope you'd attach to:

The next generation of gamers is wholly unaccepting of any "grind" or "work" in the games they chose to play.

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The problem is that MMOs used to be fun during the journey AND at cap. Ask people what their most memorable zones in MMOs are. EQ? You get a lot of Lower Guk's. FFXI? Valkurm Dunes. WoW? The Barrens. What do these all have in common? They're not zones you first see at max level.

Now everyone hates the journey because it's just a means to an end instead of being designed to be fun. I can't even name you one zone from Warhammer, Aion or TERA.

And the destination is a lobby in the main city where you queue up to play 30 min dungeons. Why even bother when you can queue for DOTA and skip the pointless journey?

If you don't have a world that is fun to play in you should just start everyone at the level cap and remove the world.

I agree completely, Dumar, but I'm unconvinced that the two have to be mutually exclusive. The core combat loop needs to be interesting and entertaining. One way to do that is to take the Dark Souls approach, where every mob presents a different challenge. In WoW, almost every mob in the world is either a Mage or a Melee, and as a result, the world feels bland.

When a wolf offers an identical experience to a spectral warrior, and those two are basically the same as an ogre, you're stuck. You churn out a huge majority of gamers right there. And to your point, you make the world much less believable and immersive.

Auto attacking is a mechanic that's one of the worst offenders. Auto attacking does nothing to add to immersion. It's not intrinsically fun, and in fact, it arguably takes away from intrinsic fun by making your actions less meaningful. I'm going to bet that the next successful MMO doesn't have auto attacking.

If the challenges you experienced in Deepholm were different from the ones you experienced in Uldum, people might stick around more. But they're not - it's the same shit the whole time. People can't get "into" WoW because going from level 19-->20 is almost identical to going from 64-->65. The challenges are the same, and that 15+ hour gap between them is immensely boring.

Short of elite raiders, what character level (or item level) you are in WoW isn't a reflection of how good you are or what challenges you've beaten, but just how much time you've sunk in.

Dumar_sl said:

An MMO should provide an immersive escape into a different world, one that is believable and consistent with its rules.

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I totally agree, but MMOs seem totally stuck. Skyrim, Bioshock Infinite, and Mass Effect 3 have delivered more immersive worlds than any MMO has over the past 3 years. And it's not because the NPCs are better, or the art is better - it's because the game mechanics themselves reinforce the larger world."Content" in these games are both new areas to explore AND new challenges to face BEFORE you get to "the end game".

The point is just that MMOs are missing an audience, and it's not because the genre is fundamentally bad, or that anyone is actively "killing WoW." I don't think the current audience is getting underserved or being given the middle finger or anything like that. The reality is that the market has changed, and the next group to recapture it is likely going to focus on being intrinsically fun.

My god you are annoying.

You keep using the word "intrinsic" as if you are saying playing wow / eq / rift / ffxi / etc isn't fun? If they aren't fun then don't play them, it's no different then starting up Skyrim and not enjoying the combat. You're saying that the first time you leveled in EQ it wasn't fun? I mean it was hard but it was a blast. Never in my entire life have I had to sell playing an mmo to someone by telling them it gets fun at max level, just wait. This is a ridiculous thing to say. Yeah if you have 5 level 90s it might get a little boring and you might be looking to get max level asap, but for the first time? It is some of the most enjoyable experiences you can have. I can't tell you how much fun it was the first time I leveled in EQ or FFXI or GW2 or WoW. If you hate RPGs and you try an mmoRPG you think it's going to be different? wtf is wrong with you. Sure there are kids out there that want instant action and don't want to work for things, but that hasn't changed over the years. Why do you think there are more than one game genres? There have always been the instant gratification games out there and there have always been the games that are almost like a second job.

Dumar_sl said:

This genre is not about occupying my mind with mindless entertainment parlor game-ish type fun for 2 hours a day. That's not what an MMO should provide. That's what Farmville is for. An MMO should provide an immersive escape into a different world, one that is believable and consistent with its rules. If the younger generation doesn't want that, then they shouldn't be playing them. Unfortunately, the devs in this industry, being as terrible as they are, design to them and every other living, breathing person on the planet.

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This x100.

What you are saying Matt is you want MMOs to be more like single player games. MMOs have never and never will be like a single player game where every second you are playing you are being completely overwhelmed with action. I would hate that, the difference between Bioshock and Everquest is that you sit down and play Bioshock for 2 hours and you are done, it's like a movie. In EQ you play all night because it's a world that sucks you in. You start out as nothing and you become something. You might be right in saying that younger people don't like that as much, but I honestly don't see it, there are a huge amount of younger people playing MMOs (14-18 y/o).

MattEnth_sl said:

One way to do that is to take the Dark Souls approach, where every mob presents a different challenge. In WoW, almost every mob in the world is either a Mage or a Melee, and as a result, the world feels bland.
Are you new here? First of all, you are wrong, and second have you ever played an mmo?
When a wolf offers an identical experience to a spectral warrior, and those two are basically the same as an ogre, you're stuck. You churn out a huge majority of gamers right there. And to your point, you make the world much less believable and immersive.
Really?
Auto attacking is a mechanic that's one of the worst offenders. Auto attacking does nothing to add to immersion. It's not intrinsically fun, and in fact, it arguably takes away from intrinsic fun by making your actions less meaningful. I'm going to bet that the next successful MMO doesn't have auto attacking.
Just no. Stop.
If the challenges you experienced in Deepholm were different from the ones you experienced in Uldum, people might stick around more. But they're not - it's the same shit the whole time. People can't get "into" WoW because going from level 19-->20 is almost identical to going from 64-->65. The challenges are the same, and that 15+ hour gap between them is immensely boring.
The game has been out for 10 years and you are now just saying this? Are you stupid? People might stick around? Where have you been? Are you new to mmos? Clearly the "people" you are referring to either don't exist or shouldn't be playing mmos, let alone RPGs.
Short of elite raiders, what character level (or item level) you are in WoW isn't a reflection of how good you are or what challenges you've beaten, but just how much time you've sunk in.
What did I just read? You are the type of person that claims content is too easy when a world first guild beats content in the first month of it releasing while you haven't even touched it.

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From what I have read I gather that you are either joking, never played an mmo besides wow, a troll, or you somehow think mmos are going to become single player rpgs? Look, if you hate grinds, hate leveling, want instant action and don't want to work for stuff then there are huge amounts of games out there that are meant just for you. No one has quit a game because leveling form 19-20 is the same as 57-58 that may have been the most insane thing I have ever read. You must have an attention disorder if you need that much stimulation.

Toxxulian_sl said:

You're saying that the first time you leveled in EQ it wasn't fun? I mean it was hard but it was a blast. . . . There have always been the instant gratification games out there and there have always been the games that are almost like a second job.

What you are saying Matt is you want MMOs to be more like single player games.

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No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I loved EQ leveling. Finishing my Singing Shortsword (Bard Epic) has been one of the highlights of my gaming career. But that was 12 years ago. Gaming has changed dramatically. The fact that we're now 14 years past EQ and 7 past WoW and still using the same formula is stupid.

I'm not asking for "instant gratification" - I am asking for the acts that you undergo to "progress your character" be gratifying. I want gratification in the short term AND the long term. To get that Singing Shortsword, I kited a lot of mobs in Dreadlands to make enough plat to buy the white dragon scale. Kiting, to me, was a lot of fun. When I logged in and someone was on my route, I'd go somewhere else and try to learn a new route. Combat back then was satisfying. Both the end AND the means were awesome. But that was 12 years ago... Games have evolved, and kiting isn't much fun anymore.

Killing an Orc should be fun because, fuck, who doesn't fantasize about killing an Orc? But just turning on auto attack and hitting the same 5 buttons you hit to kill everything else isn't sufficient anymore. It doesn't feel like I'm killing an Orc when my actions are the same as if I was killing a wolf, and the world is the same afterwards.

I don't want MMORPGs to become like single player games at all. For me, the defining element of MMOs is the idea that I'm going to group it's several other people that I've never met before to achieve something great. It's the sense of comradery and accomplishment that are very powerful, especially when combined. MMOs haven't lost that yet (though some of the social elements are dwindling), which is why I think they can recover. Killing AoW, Illidan, and Heroic Lich King are moments that I'll never forget, primarily because of the people I did it with (we still have the nerdgasm of Heroic LK on YouTube, and I still get chills every time).

But to do that - to reignite the genre - they need to capture the interests of the next generation of core gamers, and that means a radical update to the core loops in combat and questing. And that doesn't mean creating trashy worlds or ditching social elements, either.

MattEnth_sl said:

Killing an Orc should be fun because, fuck, who doesn't fantasize about killing an Orc? But just turning on auto attack and hitting the same 5 buttons you hit to kill everything else isn't sufficient anymore. It doesn't feel like I'm killing an Orc when my actions are the same as if I was killing a wolf, and the world is the same afterwards.

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Again, you are complaining about the most insane things ever. How is hitting one button to slash at an orc while using your mouse to aim (I'm guess would be more fun for you instead of auto attacking, even though I disagree) going to differ from attacking a wolf? Some how are you going to be using more mouse buttons to kill the orc?

And you some how want the world to change after every little thing you do? Seriously, you are just being difficult. Go read a book or play a table top game. You are just looking for things to bitch about. Sure I would love some of the things you are looking for, but I don't go around bitching about stuff just because I don't like it? Some of the things you want don't even exist. World changing events that happen on a daily basis? Yeah, no.

You are looking to group up with people and take bosses down? Again, do you even play the current mmos? How is that not here? Getting a group together to work on Ra-Den is still some of the most enjoyable experiences ever, not to mention grouping up for keep battles in GW2 is just as much fun as it always has been.

Does that mean we should be content with what we have? No, we can always improve on what we have. Which is happening... stop being a bitch and relax.

You just hate games.

MattEnth_sl said:

I have attention deficient disorder because I'm one of the millions who have stopped playing a genre that hasn't evolved in 5+ years? Grow up.

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You are complaining about there not being enough action at every turn when playing mmos. 5 years? Make shit up much? In the last 5 years we have seen some major changes in mmos, GW2 might not have been the greatest game but holy shit was there some amazing tech introduced. If I need to explain it to you then you are way over your head. Give up.

You're picking out specific examples rather than refuting the larger point. Here it is, very succinctly:

1) As is normal with any game (or genre), as people grow older, they stop playing. Any number of reasons can cause it (marriage, graduation, new job, having kids, or just boredom). Nothing can change this. To use a non-MMORPG example, when a lot of people have kids, they play fewer FPS games because they don't want their kids getting exposed to as much violence.

2) For games to grow or avoid decline, you need new gamers to start playing.

3) MMORPGs currently have two core loops to reach the "end game" - combat and/or questing. These loops are also very present in the "end game" (daily quests, rep grinds, etc.)

4) The gameplay design of these two loops is now 7+ years old and no longer appeals to new gamers. It isn't satisfying enough to hold their interest.

Conclusion: Thus MMORPGs are in decline, because people are naturally leaving at a rate faster than new gamers are coming in.

Recommendation: If MMORPGs want to reverse this trend, then we need a dramatic update to those two loops without sacrificing any of the other elements that make MMOs successful (ex: immersive world, great social elements, group challenges, etc) - it's worth noting that a lot of WoW's success over EQ is based in this same recommendation (WoW introduced a new core combat system and a new questing system that were both very engaging).

MattEnth_sl said:

MMORPGs currently have two core loops to reach the "end game" - combat and/or questing. These loops are also very present in the "end game" (daily quests, rep grinds, etc.)

The gameplay design of these two loops is now 7+ years old and no longer appeals to new gamers. It isn't satisfying enough to hold their interest.

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Where are you getting your info? "two loops" wtf? No one cares about "end game" when they first start playing.

You've got exploring, pvping, dungeons, questing and those have all been expanded upon and improved in the last few years. Yeah, they might not be the most optimal but again, you don't care if this is your first play through. I remember just running around places killing stuff the first time I have ever played an mmo. Questing in GW2 and doing Rifts in Rift was a lot of fun. Very different then any other game. WVW in GW2 at any level was a lot of fun, same with doing BGs in every single game that has had it. I don't see mmorpgs in the decline, I see it as there are more of these types of games out right now then there have ever been so there are shifts in population while people figure out which ones they like or decide mmos aren't for them.

Combat has never really been a "loop" (wtf?) in these games, just like it's not a "loop" in skyrim. Tera and I guess GW2 are the only ones I can think of where it was fun or different enough to be considered something. Tab target / hotbar combat has been perfected and you might not like it, but I enjoy it. Obviously others like it too, tera and gw2 both failed. Maybe if we see 1st person combat in an mmo it will change my mind. I find enjoyment in hotbar combat, being able to focus on the encounter while perfecting my rotation or adapting to raid mechanics on the fly is good fun.

You are looking at these new players as if they are vets, and they are not. YOU might not like new mmos because YOU know what you are doing, but YOU don't matter in this context.

Eh, deleting my original post because there's no point in arguing with someone so dense...

MMOs are in decline because people are naturally quitting as they go through life, and the next generation of gamers don't enjoy them. I think the next "big" MMORPG will be one that keeps the immersive wold and awesome social elements, but dramatically redefines the core combat loops and questing experiences.

The "next generation" of gamers thinks that...
- It's just not fun using the exact same abilities to get all the way from level 20 to 80.
- It's just not fun or believable/immersive to have orcs, wolves, skeletal warriors, and monkeys all attack and fight me in the exact same way.
- It's just not fun having no additional path to mastery for the 20+ hours it takes to reach maximum level.
- It's just not fun doing the 400x kill quests, 400x collect quests, 100x protect quests, and 200x deliver quests that it takes to get to max level without any variance in combat (numbers were approximations).
- It's just not fun having the overwhelming majority of quest rewards being reputation or gear I don't need or meaningless amount of money. More fun would be more cutscenes or VO that don't disrupt pacing.

MoP has been a huge step forward in addressing a lot of these issues, in part by requiring players to change how they fight certain mobs. The normal rares in MoP are one of the best examples. But they've got a long way to go to recover, and they kinda blew their chance with Cata.

Christ, it's not even a mmorpg anymore. I keep reading all of this " US 40 YEAR OLDS DON'T HAVE TIME FOR NEW GAMES ANYMORE SO FIX THIS SHIT." Fucking pick another game. "next gen" gamers have NO fucking idea because all of these new games are made for you old fuckers. "I have 2 kids and a job and c" fucking this shit isn't for you anymore. You have literally 30000 games you can play fucking dive into them. Everyone is shitting on what makes mmorpgs a fucking mmorpg. PLAY ANOTHER GAME.'

ps: fuck you cunts that ENDLESSLY post your fucking dream game that can't happen in the next 400 years. " YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE COOL? IF NPCS LOOKED AT YOU DIRTY WHEN YOU ROB SOMEONE." "Why don't npcs run from me when I am level 80." " NPCs should kidnap my kid and use it to make me raid shit." fuck you this shit isn't magic.

^ lol yes!