Korzax Stonehammer
Blackwing Lair Raider
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World of Warcraft: Current Year
- Thread starter hodj
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Mist
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I'm just saying that the biggest difference between classic and the past 3 expacs is that rotations are needlessly complex for a bunch of the classes. I don't think a lot of people want more than 24 hotbar buttons overall, including cooldowns, rotational abilities, borrowed power abilities and trinkets.
Daidraco
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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We get what you're saying, we're just saying people quit for more than that. Shadow Priest in Legion was a fun class when S2M was an ultimate "do better, get rewarded better". But several changes later, you just had a high APM class with two sets of interchanging keys that did mediocre to middle of the pack DPS. Whats the point of having an ADD rotation with muscle memory out of our your ass if your reward for playing well is shit? SP's didnt need to be a mile ahead on the meters, but with a rotation like that a well geared SP should have stayed in the top few classes on parses all of Legion. But this has been happening, like you said, for several expansions. Its again, Blizzard coding against the top end players and screwing everyone else. I cant for the life of me understand this love affair they have for Warlocks these past few years though. Regardless, most people didnt quit because of that - just begrudgingly rerolled.
Ill chime in with also enjoying how FFXIV displays shit a hell of a lot better than WoW. I think this is one of the first expansions for WoW that Ive played that what was displayed on the ground was completely off in several scenarios for where the ability would actually hit. It wasnt just a few cases like in the past, it was an overwhelming amount of cases this expansion. You could be 2-3 feet outside of the displayed area of an AOE and still get hit by it. Whereas in Legion, I could accurately side step that shit and know I was out of it just by moving a small amount. Worse yet, they pick the f'n WORST colors for displaying shit 90% of the time. Who thought it would be a good idea to make the visual queues be red on a red background this raid? And its not even the first time its been brought up as an issue. WoW overly depends on people making addons for their own shit design and so you can assume that raiders as a whole wipe several times over what they needed just to learn a boss mob simply because the visual queues are shit tier. But WoW isnt alone in this, ESO has shit for brains colors on their visual queues too. But at least you can change the colors of the bad visual queues in ESO, most people have them set as some bright ass pink.
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Xerge
<Donor>
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I'll take TESO telegraphs over FF14 every day. I do like the different telegraph types in FF14 though. WoW's engine is just awful for displaying mechanics. Is the cloud of dust going to kill me? am I in the cloud? Do I sneeze and die?
Oh and someone made this for ESO -- cycling RGB aoe indicators lol
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Mist
Eeyore Enthusiast
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You're way overthinking this. You're talking about the top 0.5% of players vs the top 5% of players.
I'm talking about people who came back for 1-2 months, after having not played in 8-10 years, or came back for Classic and went to try out Retail, got frustrated by having too many hotbar buttons and felt they needed mods to assist with their rotation by popping up a bunch of flashing shit and went and played some completely different game.
Blizzard is missing what's supposed to be fun about WoW. Having to play hyperspeed DDR just to do damage isn't it.
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kaid
Blackwing Lair Raider
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the combat is good but some consistency of visual effects for how you are supposed to react to them would be nice.
Mist
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Sure, overall, but combat was definitely more enjoyable in TBC or WOTLK for most classes than it is right now in SL.
BFA combat was fucking awful, it was just a spammy procfest.
Agree, WoW combat is good because it is crisp and has almost always been. Not because they added thirty dumb abilities in the last few expansions.
Up through MOP it was still pretty good for most classes, it has been the last 5 years or so that really has ability bloat.
I know it started even in late WOTLK but bloat is kind of the story of the post 2010 game though, too many systems, too many difficulties too much focus on catering to every possible type of player and not enough on making sure the core game was good.
Mist
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Yeah, the overall responsiveness and interactivity of WoW combat is what makes it good. Having silly rotations is retarded.
Right now, Outlaw rogues have to maintain SnD, RtB and deal with their Covenant mechanic, just to do damage, and Outlaw was a very fun spec in the two previous expacs. Ret is largely just random whack-a-mole bullshit, and Ret has been shit gameplay-wise since WOTLK or early Cata.
I liked WoW when it was more about paying attention to the encounter mechanics than slot-machine rotations. It should be able saving resources to use abilities at the right time, not hitting a button every single available GCD with the GCD getting faster and faster the entire expac until Haste is reset in the next squish. There has to be a middle ground between WoW retail ability spam and the super slow GCD of FF14.
I'll never understand why they took resource costs away from interupt spells like Kick. Pooling energy (and timing energy tics) for burst damage and/or interrupts was a key part of playing a rogue in PvP in the first 3 iterations of the game, and then they basically give you infinite energy and make you spam builders and maintenance abilities instead.
A whole lot of the fundamental gameplay decisions just don't make sense.
The things that make WoW combat good are the strong reliance on the classic MMO trinity of healer/dps/tank. Too many games try and reinvent the wheel here when it's totally not necessary. But it is definitely not necessary to have 30 hotbar buttons to maintain core gameplay of the classic trinity.
Right now, Outlaw rogues have to maintain SnD, RtB and deal with their Covenant mechanic, just to do damage, and Outlaw was a very fun spec in the two previous expacs. Ret is largely just random whack-a-mole bullshit, and Ret has been shit gameplay-wise since WOTLK or early Cata.
I liked WoW when it was more about paying attention to the encounter mechanics than slot-machine rotations. It should be able saving resources to use abilities at the right time, not hitting a button every single available GCD with the GCD getting faster and faster the entire expac until Haste is reset in the next squish. There has to be a middle ground between WoW retail ability spam and the super slow GCD of FF14.
I'll never understand why they took resource costs away from interupt spells like Kick. Pooling energy (and timing energy tics) for burst damage and/or interrupts was a key part of playing a rogue in PvP in the first 3 iterations of the game, and then they basically give you infinite energy and make you spam builders and maintenance abilities instead.
A whole lot of the fundamental gameplay decisions just don't make sense.
The things that make WoW combat good are the strong reliance on the classic MMO trinity of healer/dps/tank. Too many games try and reinvent the wheel here when it's totally not necessary. But it is definitely not necessary to have 30 hotbar buttons to maintain core gameplay of the classic trinity.
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kaid
Blackwing Lair Raider
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The thing that always kills my playing ff14 is the combat just does not feel crisp at all. The game is set so its not a huge deal but its jarring going from wow to that. Just weird that no other mmo other than maybe wildstar ever got the the combat responsiveness down right in an mmo.
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jayrebb
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Vanguard was the closest emulation to WoW combat. It took prime era WoW and expanded on it.
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Daidraco
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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I dont know if it was just the class I played or not, but I didnt get the same feeling from Wildstar as I do from WOW's combat. I do agree that I wish I could see some tab target games revamp their combat to be just as responsive, and as the popular word being used lately "crisp". Playing EQ right now, regardless of graphics - imagine playing it with a UI that could be modded just as well as WoW's and have combat responsiveness like WOW's.
Fucker
Log Wizard
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Melee raiding would suck. I played hunter. Stand back and pew pew and be able to see wtf was going on.
Still not as bad a playing healer in EQ2 raids. I didn't see a single boss in the last expac I played because I pointed my camera at the ground and played keyboard DDR with all the buttons on my 80000 hotbars.
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Good point. An example of this is the stun effect from the stone elemental boss in Torghast. The edge of the swirly effect is vague and I've gotten hit by it several times. It's also relatively short casting so you really have to be quick and move a long way to avoid it.
Merrith
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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The slow global really kills is. It feels crisp as far as responsiveness, but 2.5 second global is a real turn off to a lot of potential WoW converts. I play Bard on 14, so I'm pretty much weaving off globals all the time and it's not that bad, but I know some classes it just plays a lot slower.
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And here is the problem: Blizzard doesn't know what makes WoW fun. And neither do we as the players, because every player brings up different things they like and don't like.
The developers at this moment are like rabbits sitting in front of a snake, especially after losing 75% to 85% of their peak playerbase and producing two expansions in a row that weren't well received. The snake of course is a metaphor for Bobby Kotick and his minions.
Well, Scarizard (ex-Riot) is joining Blizzard as a WoW designer, so at least they are bringing in fresh blood.
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Mist
Eeyore Enthusiast
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I hope they can get some designers from Riot that can show them how to make Battlegrounds that are actually fun.