XCOM 2

Endlessly respawning enemies is literally the worst mechanic that can possibly used in a strategy game like this and yet it's basically every mission.

General Antony said:

Endlessly respawning enemies is literally the worst mechanic that can possibly used in a strategy game like this and yet it's basically every mission.

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Of all the viable things to bitch about in WotC, Lost sitreps really aren't one of them. "Basically every mission" is a load of shit.

I finished my run of WotC yesterday. I still think it requires a few patches. I had NPC stacking, weird line of sight, NPC movement that glitched so they moved forward only to glide back to the original spot. Also had a few annoying issues the UI but that could be because I am playing at 3440x1440.


I would rate it 7/10. Gave me another fun playthrough.

Edit: I really miss the old XCOM with the fighter vs ufo battles. I wish they could add that instead of having a big floating HQ.

a_skeleton_00 said:

This game is raw as fuck. I had Worf and Deanna troi about to blow each other's brains out within 10 minutes of playing.

I am absolutely in love with this nemesis system style rip off it's incredible and needs to be in every game.

Just got wiped on my 1st commander play through probly shouldn't be starting off on commander but ohwell the chosen assassin showed up on a mission and just lopped everyone's head off like Afro samurai.

Can't wait to play this all day.

I went gts first, what build order do you go on commander anyone have any tips?

I would assume infirmary?

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If you start with the tutorial enabled, you will always get the assassin in mission 3 (the three part mission). The three chosen are tied to the three factions, and the tutorial always starts you on the same path.

GTS is probably a safe bet. Certainly the second building if not the first and doubt it is ever considered wrong to build it first either. In WotC you take longer to level up ranks due to having to swap out members constantly. You want the squad size up as soon as possible to be able to have more people leveled up. With the tired system + expected wounded + covert ops, you're looking at a preferable 3 full squads of various classes. You will also get raided more often as the three chosen also try to assault you as time passes, so the more soldiers you have leveled up the better. Not to mention the resistance missions that seem to be on their own timer. You can easily end up doing a facility mission, then scan for less than a day and get a retaliation strike followed by a resistance strike the second you hit the scan button again.

People can correct me on this, but I think the mission timer system works like this

Facility missions. Not tied to a timer, you select them when you want.
Council, supply, retaliation (save X people), ufo hunts and countering dark event missions are all somewhat tied to a timer. Meaning if you do one of them, you will be able to scan for a few days without any of those missions popping up.
Resistance/faction missions on a separate "WotC" mission timer.

So I think there is the possibility of at least encountering 3x missions in a span of just a day (starting with the facility mission of course). Having multiple squads is very important in WotC.

EDIT: Should also note that the faction missions are usually in the "very difficult" range. Don't think I've ever seen a lower one. Good rewards, but if you watch any Twitch stream from the people who almost exclusively stream xcom (previously long war), they usually say "oh no" when those missions pop up. I think a chosen is always there, along with lots of pods or hordes of lost. They can probably also spawn an alien hunter if you've unlocked those.

a_skeleton_00 said:

This game is raw as fuck. I had Worf and Deanna troi about to blow each other's brains out within 10 minutes of playing.

I am absolutely in love with this nemesis system style rip off it's incredible and needs to be in every game.

Just got wiped on my 1st commander play through probly shouldn't be starting off on commander but ohwell the chosen assassin showed up on a mission and just lopped everyone's head off like Afro samurai.

Can't wait to play this all day.

I went gts first, what build order do you go on commander anyone have any tips?

I would assume infirmary?

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Hard to say what build order is optimal. I still feel like resistance ring and GTS are the best two starting facilities, and I'm leaning towards ring first. Getting covert ops online asap is a nice source of extra stuff like stats or even promotions for your units, and doing the first hunt the chosen op for each resistance group you've contacted gets you the first resistance order slot for that faction. Resistance orders can be really OP, especially between the eyes (instakill lost). On the other hand you never want to delay your first squad size upgrade. Even with wound times and the new tired mechanic, increased squad size means you get more total xp per mission and dramatically increases your strength relative to the aliens. Just always take at least one rookie for the first month or two, then always take one squaddie, and recruit a couple extra rookies if you have to. There's a sitrep where you can't take anyone above the rank of sergeant, so having a bunch of corporals/sergeants sitting around that you rarely use anymore is no bad thing. They can also be filler on covert ops with no ambush chance if you don't have a spare bonded pair to send.

I touched on it previously, but War of the Chosen dramatically magnifies the problem that the new X-Com games have, where the difficulty of the game drops off dramatically after a certain point, usually once you're fully transitioned into mag weapons with the second squad size upgrade purchased. There will still be the occasional difficult mission, like the first time you encounter a sectopod or gatekeeper (especially if you didn't bring much to shred) but most of the challenge is gone. Now the early game is even harder with the threat of chosen showing up, but once you start taking the chosen out you're chopping a lot of the difficulty off. Their weapons are crazy op if you get them while you're still at tier 2 weapons, and once they're dead you no longer have a chance to be ambushed on covert ops in their former territory.

I hope the folks at LWS are planning on a WotC version of Long War because shit needs to be rebalanced from top to bottom.

General Antony said:

Endlessly respawning enemies is literally the worst mechanic that can possibly used in a strategy game like this and yet it's basically every mission.

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Gavinmad said:

Of all the viable things to bitch about in WotC, Lost sitreps really aren't one of them. "Basically every mission" is a load of shit.

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It's more than just the lost. It's also reinforcements. It's Chosen Sanctuaries. It's Codex clones, Chrysalid babies, and Psi zombies. X-Com has several mechanics for spawning near infinite enemies. I mean that's obviously the game, but he's not wrong that it does get a bit lame after a while that nearly every enemy besides the basic core have a way to add more enemies to the map. It's not DA2 / CoD levels of bad, but it does bloat some missions more than they need to be.

Gavinmad said:

Of all the viable things to bitch about in WotC, Lost sitreps really aren't one of them. "Basically every mission" is a load of shit.

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Talking about the endless respawns in the ascension chambers. The lost are fine, although I'm not sure they bring anything interesting to the game.

But the ascension chambers just make certain classes absolute garbage to have along.

Sulrn said:

It's more than just the lost. It's also reinforcements. It's Chosen Sanctuaries. It's Codex clones, Chrysalid babies, and Psi zombies. X-Com has several mechanics for spawning near infinite enemies. I mean that's obviously the game, but he's not wrong that it does get a bit lame after a while that nearly every enemy besides the basic core have a way to add more enemies to the map. It's not DA2 / CoD levels of bad, but it does bloat some missions more than they need to be.

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A disoriented or frozen codex doesn't clone, a disoriented sectoid can't use psychic powers. Reinforcements get decimated by overwatch unless they drop in at a very inconvenient time/place.

General Antony said:

Talking about the endless respawns in the ascension chambers. The lost are fine, although I'm not sure they bring anything interesting to the game.

But the ascension chambers just make certain classes absolute garbage to have along.

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The ascension chambers are kinda half-assed, but pretty much every 'boss fight' in the game involves endlessly spawning adds. With how much control concealment gives the player over engagements, the only ways to increase the difficulty are bigger numbers (which the higher difficulties do), time limits (which exist and people bitch about), or spawning extra enemies to deal with (which exist and now people are bitching about that too).

For me, the reapers and skirmishers aren't really all that big of a hero class. I mean, my 2 colonels are specialist, and healing specialists at that. Below them I think that I've got a sharpshooter, a grenadier, ranger, then way down at the very bottom of my majors list do I have the reaper and skirmisher. The reaper can't hit for shit, and she gets exposed every fucking time she does hit something. Mox can be useful, but only when dealing with lost and stuff that has extremely low hp.

The only thing that I've actually found a use for is the templar, and he's even a lower level. I think he's at lieutenant or something. *shrug* I'm also not finding much use for them in the second and third trees, again, except for the templar.

goishen said:

For me, the reapers and skirmishers aren't really all that big of a hero class. I mean, my 2 colonels are specialist, and healing specialists at that. Below them I think that I've got a sharpshooter, a grenadier, ranger, then way down at the very bottom of my majors list do I have the reaper and skirmisher. The reaper can't hit for shit, and she gets exposed every fucking time she does hit something. Mox can be useful, but only when dealing with lost and stuff that has extremely low hp.

The only thing that I've actually found a use for is the templar, and he's even a lower level. I think he's at lieutenant or something. *shrug* I'm also not finding much use for them in the second and third trees, again, except for the templar.

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Templars are good, but can somewhat be replaced with a ranger. Skirmishers, same. Both of those feel like a mix of other classes with some negatives (particularly less weapon damage at first).

Reapers on the other hand you can spec for stealth which no other can. Their stealth is much better than regular stealth, and you can get abilities that void being detected while shooting and also be able to enter stealth again by using a claymore. Combine that with the ability to tag enemies forever once they see and they become very useful. They can actually sneak up to mission objectives alone which no other class can. Not sure about them not hitting since I think they have the best aim other than snipers.

Templars were immediately useful, but so far I'd rate them reaper > templar > skirmisher in my limited experience (none of them are maxed, think they are captains or majors).

I would agree with all that but one thing, well actually two. One point you addressed and one in which you didn't.

Reapers are just like rangers except they went down the other tree (the one across from Blademaster), with a couple'a new things tossed in. I didn't mean that they couldn't hit, I simply meant that when they do hit it's for like 4 or 5 damage. Yah, that's what I spent all those credits upgrading your gun, twice, for. It just feels like she's dragging the entire team down when she's along. And when I do move her all the way forward, it's likely that I'm going to hit about 2 or 3 pods along the way and one of them will spot her. It doesn't matter if I move her all at once, or move her ahead twice, checking to see if anything's there or not.

It's like a no win situation.

Templars -> skirmishers -> reapers is the way that I'd rate it.

EDIT : Maybe I just suck at rogue like games. That could very well be.

Skirmishers seem like garbage to me thusfar - but I've not worked them too deep. And yea, I agree that the Reaper gun is basically a wimpy peashooter. Their stealth is GREAT for information and such, but those times you need DPS, they're so lacking.

Skirmishers are meant to be used around their abilities, not their gun. Being able to take 4+ actions after using their abilities to start a "skirmish" and granting an additional action to a team mate are where they shine. If you play them like Warlords from DnD 4.0 , you'll understand their niche - manipulating the battle field.

Reapers aren't meant to be your heavy hitters. They're your scouts/infiltrators and clean up crew (pair really well with skirmishers). They're also great for initiating fights or setting up for initiating fights with remote start / claymores. They have a sit rep dedicated to this style of play and most base missions are covered in explosive material that takes 3/4 hp from most pods. They're also the only class that can reliably solo the majority of missions due to their super stealth.

Templars are a gimpy ranger / psi op. They don't get the raw damage output of a ranger or the ranged utility of a psi op. They're supposed to be used as an aggressive snow ball, but with current mechanics they fail utterly without a bonus action or two or a few cleanup kills to get them started. Their most powerful ability (mechanically) is their ability to swap positions with enemy / friendly units or to create a duplicate of themselves from a humanoid corpse.

Once your Reaper gets the ability where kill shots don't pop you out of shadow, you just use them to finish wounded enemies. Should always be 100% hits, and you get another +1 damage if they were wounded that turn. The only way to get revealed out of shadow is if they patrol directly into you, so if you're constantly getting pulled out of shadow then you're just bad at positioning. The problem with Skirmishers is that their signature ability of shooting first not ending the turn is something that Infantry already had in Long War in the previous X-Com, and multiple modded classes had pre-WotC, and they were allowed to use rifles instead of being stuck with a carbine/smg/whatever. Generally agree about Templar, although they make extremely good covert agents on ops with an ambush chance due to parry and pistol access to handle the lost. They can also do an enormous amount of damage to whichever chosen they get bonus damage against if they have a bond mate to give them an extra action, and they don't take as long to cook as a psy op.

Gotta say Sparks really feel underpowered in WotC. If you're going to use one you want it built as soon as possible, but 2 cores is really expensive early on since that could have been 2 experimental grenades or ammo. Wish you could get the Shen's Last Gift narrative mission while leaving Alien Hunters set to the new WotC functionality. I mean yeah, they don't get tired and you can send them on missions while damaged, but you can't send them on covert ops and they can't form a bond with anyone. They're also expensive as hell to upgrade considering you're probably only going to have a single spark built in the first place.

Gavinmad said:

Gotta say Sparks really feel underpowered in WotC. If you're going to use one you want it built as soon as possible, but 2 cores is really expensive early on since that could have been 2 experimental grenades or ammo. Wish you could get the Shen's Last Gift narrative mission while leaving Alien Hunters set to the new WotC functionality. I mean yeah, they don't get tired and you can send them on missions while damaged, but you can't send them on covert ops and they can't form a bond with anyone. They're also expensive as hell to upgrade considering you're probably only going to have a single spark built in the first place.

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There's nothing for Spark bonds, yet, but there are several mods rebalancing Sparks. If you don't have them: Sparks with AWC Abilities // Metal Over Flesh Redux are two great mods. I don't have the Covert Ops mod installed, but I know there is one specifically for Sparks.

Hearing mixed things about the state of Longwar 2. Sounds like Pavonis isn't considering updating LW2 at this time. At least that's the impression they're giving over at their forum. Sad days if that remains the case.

Sulrn said:

Hearing mixed things about the state of Longwar 2. Sounds like Pavonis isn't considering updating LW2 at this time. At least that's the impression they're giving over at their forum. Sad days if that remains the case.

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Makes me sad but I can't blame them. I can only assume that Firaxis/2K paid them to do Long War 2, and rebalancing Long War 2 around all of the mechanics added in WotC seems like it would be almost as much work as creating a mod from scratch.

Random Update - there is now a "Sparks Can Bond" mod. There you go - with 3 mods, Sparks are now up to speed in WOTC.