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Dude you and 2bit have the same problem. You"re always waiting for somebody else to propose something so you or he can shoot it down. Why don"t you try to come up with a good example yourself? Try some hypo-craft.

Did you not play LOTRO at all?

I"d agree with this. A lot of the fun I had in VG was almost certainly unintended and much of that was nerfed or changed for the worse -- who remembers the quite cool Mothras in the Tsang forest area? I"d say the same thing about WoW. What I enjoyed most about the game had little to do with...

Probably why I never last more than a year at any one game. * * * In any event 2bit even combat doesn"t require tanks, healers, dps, cc (well not in the EQ/WoW sense of those words). Certainly none of those classes make sense in some hypothetical WWII MMO (it"d have a far different type of...

I ran around VG and looked at all the shit. Hell I tried to swim from Thestra to Kojan early on. I did similar explorations in EQ and WoW. The last six months in WoW were just getting into areas I hadn"t gotten to before. One of the reasons I liked VG was the fact there was a shitton to explore...

Hell yeah it"s fun. The last six months I played WoW I spent almost my entire time exploring its backside (top of Un"Goro, old Silithus, Hyjal & CoT pre-TBC the weird shit in Deadmines). One of the four types of gamers is Explorer -- so I know I"m not alone (and wasn"t alone on those journeys)...

IF, hypothetically, 38 studios has decided to go with a skill-based system but the content is still designed around the main archetypes (tanking, healing, CCing, dpsing (melee/magic:emoji_nose: + what I also consider main archs -- but a lot of people think of as secondary characteristics...

And a hug.

You"re right man. What do you want to talk about?

Nothing to do with trite French philosophies. I wasn"t kidding in my post above. 38 studios for sure has their design docs by now. Their class system are set (and probably have been set for weeks or months) already (and guessing from CS"s ravings about WoW"s classes that"ll be the base from...

Dude it just doesn"t matter. You understand that right?

I"d like to be your BFF 2bit. * * * You"re a beautiful man (woman? thing?) Agraza. For fuck"s sake they"ve made this thread just so wanna-bes like myself will happily post 10 pages of drivel on a class system that 38 studios will never use. Do they care? Of course not. The only point to...

I don"t care that you hate the idea. I just think its amusing that you -- Mr. game designers should be humble and listen to new ideas & etc. -- come up with bullshit reasons why it sucks. Reality is that you don"t like it simply because its my idea but you refuse to admit that. That"s why I keep...

Okay so you make sure it takes at least 100 hours to level to max = 2700 hours for 27 (actually a 100-200 less because of twinks but whatever). It isn"t happening. I fail to understand why you"re flipping out about this.

Oh come one. Say average 60 hours to level all 27 classes (80 for the first guy less for twinks). You"re talking 1620 hours if all you do is just level one class after another. Give me a break. Maybe five insane people will do it -- but most will only do what 5 maybe? How many max level alts...

Who the hell is arguing for being every class at once? The only thing anyone has said at anytime is that alts shouldn"t be necessary. You should be able to use one char to level any class and then switch classes with a classmaster or whatever. How the hell is that being every class at once?

As noted, I don"t object in theory to skill based systems as opposed to a class based system. As long as the rock/scissors/paper rule is adhered to for content and skill design. I think the biggest problem isn"t in balance but in PUG formation. Sans classes how do you identify what you need...

Whats the real difference between that and having 27 alts? You have to level the class or the alts. Instead of saying leveling a Druid to 70 and then an alt Shaman to 70 and then telling your party (when they need a Shaman) give me a second let me log off and log on my Druid. You just level your...

Man I wish I were an astronaut. If I had 30million to spend I"d blow it on a space station run w/ a little help form the Russians. In any event you forget that I believe in job-swapping and subjobbing. So my full system is ultimately more flexible than WoWs. Sick of being a shadowknight...

D. Does Blizz have to balance each of the talent trees a class has with the other 2 trees the class has as well as the 3 talent trees of all the other classes? I"m not asking if the trees are correctly balanced (a whole nother question) -- but rather aren"t they supposed to be balanced...

Listen you dipshits (I refer to you and Drag) as noted several times already balancing WoW"s 3 talent trees/class is no different than balancing 27 distinct classes with specific sets of abilities. There is no fucking difference between balancing 27 classes with one set of abilities and 9...

I"m okay with tri-classes too. There are like 54 combos or something given the 8 archtypes -- just pick 15 or so of them and go with it. Of course they can try and think out of the box and get rid of the Diku archetypes. No clue what they"d replace them with. You can go pure-itemization (the...

Any hybrid CC should be roughly equivalent CC ability. Same that any hybrid with Tank should be roughly equivalne tank abilty. Any hybrid with X should do X roughly as well as any other hybrid with X. Class differentiate is accomplished by the unique combination of abilities. There is only...

Bullshit. It is far more fucking likely in the wait an hour for perfect group scenario than the first and you know it. In any event this whole discussion is becoming retarded. A properly designed class system combined with decent level designs = no required classes for any 5/6-man content...

It should not be impossible for any group to beat a particular encounter. But it should be a fuckton harder for 6 Mages to beat an encounter than a better group distribution 1 Tank, 2 Healers, 2 DPS, 1 CC. Said another way. It is fine to balance encounters for 1/2/2/1 with the assumption that...

These "many people" are remarkably stupid. Let me give you a RL example. I LFG for an hour because I must have a_specific_class. During that time two members of my group become bored and leave for a group that forms immediately. So I spend another hour getting an actual group together that...

Players are smart and should be able to figure out multiple ways to beat an encounter. The goal of the class designer should be to provide the players with a broad tool set spread over the classes. The goal of the content designer should be to design content that is difficult. The...

Did you ever play WoW -- the gear comment was pretty obviously a direct reference to BOE WoW-style gear. Or didn"t you get that? I would think that it would be an obvious assumption that some classes have gear that is interchangable -- e.g. both Tanks and Melee DPS classes can usually use...

This post makes Z=Zero sense. If you have designed a dungeon only able to be beaten (or much, much more easily beaten) using a specific ability then you are a shitty designer (and yes I"m thinking of fear ward here). In any event looking at the 5-man dungeons you"re telling me that a specific...

It doesn"t come down to min/maxers. They, like high-end raiders, are a small part of the total mix. I"m reminded of the penny-arcade series on pokemon where some kid had an all-pikachu army (or whatever -- I don"t fucking play pokemon. I just like penny-arcade) because "she liked pikachu."...

No. I do not want a classless skill-based system. Classes are useful in that they are a identification shortcut to other players. This is why talent trees are fucked they obfuscate what should be a simple id. Skill-based systems are even worse. Edit: tym -- yeah I know it operates at half-the...

You have spent the last two pages bitching about balance and class identity and you now tell me you prefer talent trees? Are you fucking serious? Edit: Re subjobing. Yes I played FFXI until the UI killed me one to many times -- point is to avoid ability creep (e.g. Monks getting healing...

You aren"t answering the question. Do you or do you not agree that the vast majority of players who played with healing classes in VG -- pre disciple/shaman nerf -- say beta4/open beta -- Shaman/BM/Cleric and Disciple felt that all these healing classes filled the same functionality in a group...

You are not a special and unique snowflake Bob. Special and unique snowflakes are what causes all the fucking problems with class balance in the first place. Every class should be a hybrid and if designed properly, no they don"t do the same things in the same way. You can have Tank/CC...

I think it is clear that you don"t need pure classes in an MMO. The balance problem crops up when as noted by Rezz when you have a pure class (War) competing with hybrid classes (Pal/SK/whatever) for a position (Tank). Look at all the bitching in wow over feral druids. Because they were...

I may be insane Draeg -- but my class structure gets rid of the pure classes -- which cause the "we need X" problem and causes balancing problems. Either everyone is a pure class or no-one is. Mix and Match has got to stop. So if you"re not going to have 8 pure classes then everybody should...

Since you asked-- I want 27 classes with a subjob system. Given the eight types of class archetypes: tank, healer, melee dps, magic dps, debuff, buff, pet and CC -- there are 29 unique combinations of this archetypes. Combine all these classes with a subjob system and you never have to worry...

And of course the original Ngruk question was simply: what is the one thing that pisses you off about current MMOs. Nothing to do with what would you like to see in the next gen of MMOs. He should just have done a poll. So far the winners are: 1. Harvesting 2. Durability 3. Tiered quests...

As noted BOE = bind on equip gear. EQ is the only game that got loot almost right. There is BOP/A is fine for somethings like epic items but the majority of loot should be unbound so you can easily use it and then pass to a twink or sell it. Soulbound items that aren"t epic suck. Tiered...

BOE (whoever first thought massive BOE was a good thing should DIAF) and tiered quest based progression that requires backflagging (should be able to get the quest even if you haven"t done prequests if members of group are on it). That"s two but whatever.