28mm Miniature Tabletop Wargaming Thread

Jx3

Riddle me this...
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You arent toeing the party line bro. AoS is the BEST GAME EVER!!! How dare you not love everything GW does!

Sorry, its just annoying reading my LGS facebook group. All these shitheads who never played fantasy stroking themselves off over AoS. So I ask what happens if AoS goes big and GW decides to make 40k the same system. Suddenly their tripping over themselves to let me know that GW would never do that! Personally I could care less, but I kinda want that to happen just to watch the nerd rage.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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I dunno, it seems like a forum created skirmish system for lunchtime games meant to be played as a special character arena. It doesn't seem to have any flavor in mechanics or momentum. But as a way to liquidate huge numbers of units (oh shit on a 4+ I can bring on not just 20 chaos warriors but 250????) I guess it's OK as a sales pitch. P2W I guess.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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So there's this from Dakka Dakka:

GW had a guy camped out at the Forge World open day whos entire job was to answer questions and talk to people about Age of Sigmar. His entire job is to go to shows and talk to people about the new game. For the first time I think ever they're taking Age of Sigmar to Gencon, Comic Con, all the major wargames conventions in Europe etc. They're throwing a considerable amount of money at putting this in front of new audiences who have never played fantasy before. He was also brutally honest and didn't dodge any questions and answered everything he could. I'll start with the negative stuff first.

This is it. There categorically will not be a '9th' edition of fantasy. Age of Sigmar is the only thing fantasy related GW will do for the considerable future.

He acknowledges that the 'funny' rules are rather silly and don't make for a great intro to the system for new people. His response was that the armies in the box set don't have the silly rules. They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place.

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again.

There will never be points values.

On to the slightly positive stuff then.

They are going to fully support all modes of play, and will be releasing rules to balance armies against each other. There will be narrative campaigns where your forces are picked for you for specific missions, and there will be a system for tournament players to balance lists that isn't based on model count. He did not know the specifics of this, but said it is definitely coming.

The rules will always be free. He said that they are very very aware that fantasy had a massive buy in for someone to get started, as such the game was designed with the ability to play it with one box of models. There will be army books, but every rule in them will be available, for free, online. The books will just have extra background info and scenarios.

GW really are trying harder than they ever have before to make this work. If you're at one of the shows go and talk to them. They want to talk to you about this, but especially they want your feedback on it. As he said, this is totally uncharted territory for them and they are totally open to rules revisions as they go.
It looks like the silly rules are there just for flavor in the old armies, but that they won't be competitive with all the new releases. This is both bad and good. Other highlights are that they are actually entering the marketplace vs. real competitors (going to gencon,etc.). They are also going to release new armies for everything as per the rumors regarding the kingdoms vs. old world stuff as well as competitive/tournament rules.

I'll say this: they sure know how to create a shitstorm. They could have simply said 'we are moonlighting all classic WHFB armies, have fun with the last huzzah or continue to play 8th until your favorite army comes back' but instead radio silence.

I'm actually intrigued with whether this succeeds - but they seem to want to finally fight PP directly and want to beat out Warmahordes.

That said, I'm still completely not sold on the system because as I mentioned before it seems to break down quickly without comparative rolling. However, universal online rules set and an app means we could see more frequent and useful updates to rules. I'm honestly surprised GW went this route.

However, it does make sense why they want 'unlimited armies' right now, they want to liquidate back stocks lol. I'm a bit curious why they released the starter box and no units though.
 

Khalan

Trakanon Raider
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The system is shallow and offers no depth besides a big melee/cluster fuck in the middle with everything being 3+ or 4+. No R/P/S mechanic, no real advanced rules or manouvering. Measuring model to model is retarded and the lack of any army building rules/pts is an abortion.

I was one of the biggest optimists in our gaming group for AoS/9th but after playing it I can say it offer nothing of why I played WHFB in the first place, which is fine because i am not GW's target customer anymore.
 

Fury

Silver Knight of the Realm
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I must be missing something - in the making attacks section, subsection 3 says: "...if the results equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the targget unit, the wound is saved and the attack squence ends...."

Where is the Save characteristic? I don't see it on any army unit stats.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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The system is shallow and offers no depth besides a big melee/cluster fuck in the middle with everything being 3+ or 4+. No R/P/S mechanic, no real advanced rules or manouvering. Measuring model to model is retarded and the lack of any army building rules/pts is an abortion.

I was one of the biggest optimists in our gaming group for AoS/9th but after playing it I can say it offer nothing of why I played WHFB in the first place, which is fine because i am not GW's target customer anymore.
I was thinking about this some more and a couple things come to mind. First of the fact that measurement and stacking is on the model and not the base is just dumb. I don't know how you get around that A) playing oddly and B) looking like a cluster to any onlooker. After all part of the allure of mini gaming is when you have amazing armies and terrain that's almost cinematic and engaging if done well. Without keeping bases uniform you can have very "win more" conversions like 3" long daggers on goblins so the entire unit of 80 can attack.

Secondly, the issue with units having an effect on what other units do to it I think can be resolved with special rules. For instance have key word "cavalry" and you have spearman that are 4+ to hit but 2+ vs cavalry key word units. Without fleshed out army lists for all the new armies, it's very difficult to tell if it will have more interaction between units as surely the starter box unit rules are less advanced on purpose.

We'll see.
 

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Let's be serious here guys; its GW being GW. Half-assed and money-grubbing without the substance required for success. It really is smoke and mirrors to hopefully distract people long enough to what's really - or not - going on.

I want to believe and I want it to be a good product, but I know it's not going to be and I'll be damned if I give GW another cent, ever again.
 

Phazael

Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
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Too bad they nuked the entire US Masters community just as it was getting off the ground. Mantic gets to win by default, I guess.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Let's be serious here guys; its GW being GW. Half-assed and money-grubbing without the substance required for success. It really is smoke and mirrors to hopefully distract people long enough to what's really - or not - going on.

I want to believe and I want it to be a good product, but I know it's not going to be and I'll be damned if I give GW another cent, ever again.
Well here's the thing though, with free rules you don't have to give them a cent to see how it goes and like Mantic you can use proxies just to play the system. That's what I don't get if GW is doing the same old same old, it would have made way more sense to keep charging 40 bucks for each e-book.

I think the telling thing is going to be if they fix communication and make rules updates continually, consistently and timely. I won't put any money on it but that's what AoS needs to change and survive.
 

Phazael

Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
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You are not thinking like GW. The CEO is about to get out, so he wants to inflate his stock as much as he can. The whole company has focused on sucking share holder dick since they went public, to degrees unheard of by any company. They decided Fantasy was dead, so they are using it as a guinea pig to trial balloon something they might do with 40k down the road. If it crashes and burns (i.e. what is going to happen), it gets tossed in the bargain bin next to dreadfleet and all the hobbit minis, to be used as fodder for future space marine conversion bits. If not, well then fuck it stop trying and nuke the 40k community too, because spoiled 9 year olds are their new bubble and fuck anyone else.

There is a reason anyone, other than Kirby and Jervis, that has been their a long time have all bailed. No one but the marketing people (and Jervis who hates organized play) wanted something this shitty. This would be embarrassing to any company with an ounce of self awareness. As GW has not done any marketing or even communicated with their playerbase in almost a decade, to the extent of pretending the internet is not a thing, they are blissfully unaware. Except that they knew for this bullshit to have any legs they had to do all they could to kill what was left of the WHF community, which they have done an outstanding job of.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Here's the thing, I've been following GW and playing on and off since RT. I agree that going public forced a lot of bullshit and frankly the company is run with an extremely poor business plan. If you look back in this thread you'll see I've been extremely critical of them.

That said, some of my chief complaints have been a) barrier for entry b) cost and scale just to play a game and c) lack of communication and updates on their game rules.

AoS for all it's perceives problems (I say perceived because the game is clearly 90% from scrolls and none exist complete yet for the new armies) fixes many of those issues.

I'm not giving GW any more money or carte blanche on past sins and I do think they utterly failed with not alienating the hardcore WHFB fans by simply communicating. That said I'm going to simply be critical, definitely skeptical, but I'll let them prove to me they're trying to change to survive. If this is a stunt or AoS is a black library game in two years, they haven't and fuck em. But if I'm to be as critical as I have been in the past I can't also ignore the positive steps towards better policies and games.
 

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Palum, free rules doesn't help anyone but the jaded old-timer (all of us) and we're SO jaded we just don't give a shit what GW does. The new folks that GW should be trying to get into the games won't be able to play for free. They'll have to spend a shit-ton on minis regardless of the rules being free. Give with one hand and take away with the other. It'll end up being the same cost for new folks.
 

Phazael

Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
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Imagine a skirmish system that let you take some troop models, one hero, and one ogre or monster type thing for an army. Imagine said system used the core WHF concepts, but with skirmishing. Imagine the system used point values listed right in the existing army books and could be played in under an hour. Said barrier of entry now becomes one box of troops, a hero blister, a monster or chariot kit, and an army book. You can expand from there, but if you want to play Mordheimesque warhammer with other newbies, you can. When you move up to more models, the core concepts remain the same and your models are still useful. A little warband force would run $120ish in most cases, so less than the new Age of Shitmar boxed set. You run weekly event leagues that require GW minis to be used at them to retain prize support form GW, to encourage people using GW figures over third party alternatives.

This has been suggested to them many times from many people. Instead, they lost their asses foolishly chasing chapterhouse. So now we have this shit show just so GW can rename Ogres to "Ogors" and add the word Storm or Blood to everything in order to trademark it.
 

Sneeto

Golden Squire
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So the idea is to make WH Fantasy very easy for new comers to jump and in learn? That's the gist I get of all this. I also heard they are renaming every race to other shit just so they can TM it? Think they'll keep orks looking like orks or make them different than the old models? I understand new casts and models, but I wonder if they'll change it drastically. Orks can look pretty different. LOTR, EQ, WoW Ork/c's all look quite different.
 

Phazael

Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
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Yeah all old sculpts are done. They are renaming everything.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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I mean, on one hand GW only brought this onto themselves. On the other, despite some of their generic stuff, there's soooo many games that have basically stolen 40K that I can't blame them for finally moving the generic bits to unique stuff. That said, the Chapterhouse thing was enforcement of one of many idiotic longstanding policies like:

1) Killing the outriders program
2) Eliminating bit sales
3) Litigating against anyone and anything for IP regardless of validity
4) Constant price increases blamed on 'increased material costs' DESPITE the commodities market showingexactlythe opposite
5) Banning e-sales outside their own website
6) Dropping stores that don't display their products prominently enough
7) Requiring stores to carry inventory that doesn't sell in order to offload shitty management decisions
8) Suing their own resellers for advertising sales to move more product

etc.
 

Fury

Silver Knight of the Realm
499
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They really have brought it all on themselves as Palum points out pretty well. But I don't think anyone is going to be "fooled" by this move. Last year they had a 12% loss in revenue, which brought on a 25% loss on their stock. This year I understand their revenue is still bleeding red, and we will see what happens to the stock. Personally I can't wait until some other game company buys them up and turns it around, but I think we have a few more years of their death throws before that happens.

TBH I'm still surprised that table top minature gaming hasn't died off completely. With the ease of computer gaming, better graphics, stable multiplayer, and handheld devices, it's a wonder we still have any TT at all.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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3D printing could save it, IMO. Then again after standardization I could see many products going that route: have 3D Kinkos shop, you go in with your data files you bought uses of and print a few boxes of space marines, a cell phone case and a lamp base and then go on your merry way.