American Sniper

Devlin

Golden Squire
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I didn't see any overt propaganda in this movie - I actually think it tried to shy away from that and just tell the tale. It was a story about a guy's experience in war and how it effected him (sorry no Baylicious buildup and climax). I just don't see the whole propaganda angle like Rogen pointed out (I think he was just trying to be funny - and honestly, I started watching this expecting to see it).
That would be like saying a PoV movie about Hitler was pro-Nazi or a movie about Darwin was pro-evolution.

Eastwood's a good storyteller, and he did pretty good here (Eastwood's bias is discernible, though I attribute some of it to the PoV of Bradley's char). I wouldn't say it's a great movie, but it was good and worth a watch. I certainly wouldn't say it glorified war or was all full of nationalistic messages, if that's anyone's concern. I think anyone who watches this who thinks PTSD is made up by liberal psych major BS might think twice about how war affects a person, though - you don't go through shit like that and came back the same as you left - I felt that was the ultimate "message" of the movie.
We'll it really depends on your knowledge/perception of the events.

Was that an accurate depiction of Chris Kyle?
I heard some interviews with him before he died and obviously the Jesse Ventura story that made the guy come off as a bit of an arsehole. No hint of this in the movie.

Is someone on the side of an invading force in an illegal war a hero or are the civilians in the resistance the heroes?
Replace USA with Germany and Iraq with France then you might understand where the parallels with the Inglorious Bastards scene are coming from.
A lot of the time people fail to put themselves in the shoes of their counterparts. Imagine the USA was the one being invaded by a foreign force that you didn't understand who told you your government and way of life wasn't acceptable what would you do in their situation?
 

Izo

Tranny Chaser
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We'll it really depends on your knowledge/perception of the events.

Was that an accurate depiction of Chris Kyle?
I heard some interviews with him before he died and obviously the Jesse Ventura story that made the guy come off as a bit of an arsehole. No hint of this in the movie.

Is someone on the side of an invading force in an illegal war a hero or are the civilians in the resistance the heroes?
Replace USA with Germany and Iraq with France then you might understand where the parallels with the Inglorious Bastards scene are coming from.
A lot of the time people fail to put themselves in the shoes of their counterparts. Imagine the USA was the one being invaded by a foreign force that you didn't understand who told you your government and way of life wasn't acceptable what would you do in their situation?
Become a canadian sniper with a bandana. It's aboot time to corpse poop. This movie practically writes itself.

Arron Perry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Royal

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Is someone on the side of an invading force in an illegal war a hero or are the civilians in the resistance the heroes?
Replace USA with Germany and Iraq with France then you might understand where the parallels with the Inglorious Bastards scene are coming from.
A lot of the time people fail to put themselves in the shoes of their counterparts. Imagine the USA was the one being invaded by a foreign force that you didn't understand who told you your government and way of life wasn't acceptable what would you do in their situation?
There are a lot of people who simply do not want to cope with this level of nuance. They want a self-sorted, black and white world
 

Eidal

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There are a lot of people who simply do not want to cope with this level of nuance. They want a self-sorted, black and white world
None of which has anything to do with a movie about a man who did and survived some incredible shit and tried to make a family work during and after it.
 

Royal

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None of which has anything to do with a movie about a man who did and survived some incredible shit and tried to make a family work during and after it.
You should have been able to tell from the quoted portion that it wasn't a statement about the movie itself.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Yeah, he really is. He's also misinformed about a lot of issues that he supposedly has a problem with. But when you boil down Forest fucking Gump to that insane conclusion, what can you expect? As someone in the notes said; his opening paragraph says all you need to know. "I hated this movie a little less than I expected"--he went in looking for flaws, he found some (The movie has quite a few) and then expanded on those flaws with his nut case philosophical conclusions about morality and narrative.
What is he misinformed about? That's precisely what Forrest Gump was in every single situation in which the movie put him in (i.e., American cultural attitude is to respond by dumbifying or make light of everything - especially violence), and that review was spot about this movie - which was awful.
 

Lithose

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What is he misinformed about? That's precisely what Forrest Gump was in every single situation in which the movie put him in (i.e., American cultural attitude is to respond by dumbifying or make light of everything - especially violence), and that review was spot about this movie - which was awful.

The message of Forrest Gump was that if you think about the hard stuff too much, you'll either get AIDS or lose your legs.


Dumar, if you honestly walked away from that movie with this impression? Then anything I type here is going to be futile..But I can't sleep. His views on Gump are asinine because Gumps' "thing" was that it specificallydidn'thave a message. It lets the audience make every call. Gump himself may as well have been a camera going from event to event, being mildly pleasing between the action on the screen. The movie was just a historical accounting of moments in time, seen through anapoliticalset of eyes. And they intentionally drilled it into the audiences thick head that Gump wasn't going to make a moral call on any of this because he was retarded; it was up to YOU to do that. Somehow that got twisted into the movie promoting the delusional narrative above.

For example; you could take Dan's leg loss SO many other ways--especially considering he was the only person who wished to be in the war, and who supported it and he only became happy against after being disillusioned with his patriotism. How Taibi could twist such dark message about blind patriotism hurting people into the above bullshit? Isincredible, it's honestly some delusional social justice shit right there. (I mean, when you say the genre of Vietnam war films, which shit all over that war, andoftenportrayed American soldiers as murderers and savages, were not deprecating enough because they only had us "care" about our own guys? There is nothing that will please you. At that point, you are just complaining because you like to feel special that you have some special knowledge about how much war REALLY sucks, and all the rest of the people are sheep for not being more angry. And that's what it comes down to, the person who realizes how bad stuff REALLY is, is the smartest, most special post-structuralist snow flake.) But, honestly, if someone could walk away with the above sentiment about Forest Gump? It says infinitely more about you than Hollywood media or movies or whatever.

Anyway; Taib's misinformed about the issues in this movie mainly because the issues he discusses don't actually have an association with the movie (At first I thought he might not have even watched it due to the hyperbole about finally being fed up with killing kids. It's obvious they emphasize how fucked up he was over his first shot. And they made sure to have all the soldiers literally state their disillusionment with war.). The fact is the movie is about a single man, caught up in something much larger than himself. Now, I personally think the moviefailedto tell that story well for a few reasons--however, none of those reasons include the lack of a political message (Only time he came close to a point is when he said the real Chris Kyle was probably more of a dick, the movie Kyle was very Mary Sue, which was one of the movie's failings). Taibi's entire critique is based off just that, the lack of a political message; he can't simply allow people to see a child being shot and let them decide that shit is bad. No, he has to run us through every American mistake and make sure everyone knows it was all bad, to emphasize that a child being killed was TRULY awful. (News Flash Taibi; everyone already does believe Iraq was blunder. No one who hated the Iraq war is going to go watch this and say "oh, I like it now".)

Not every piece of media will ever be able to capture all the nuance around complex issues. Especially once you start heading into personal perspectives and opinions. If that yard stick is going to be used to shit on something--that it did NOT include the vast amount of context that all complex problems have--then I could shit all over half of Taibi's economic stories (And my own posts, even). Taibi's editorial here would be like me finding his article about futures trading and screaming about how he doesn't cover X or Y huge benefit of futures and therefor his whole article is a festering piece of anti-capitalist shit. Because if an article doesn't teach someone enough to be an Economist, it's a bad article. (Obviously this isn't true--it's one perspective of a single problem, it's not meant to cover all the nuance.)

Taibi just used this to soap box about the Iraq war and how is was terrible. And he was mad because the movie didn't do that MORE for him. To call the movie "dangerous" because it presents a different point of view is as silly as saying Call of Duty is "dangerous" because it glorifies war. Or, more specifically to Taibi, it's as dumb as some of the hardcore Capitalists I know who critique Taibi's views on U.S. financial muscle being insidious as myopic, and "dangerous", because he doesn't talk about how they limit certain state sponsored warfare and generally promote trade/connectivity and a host of other benefits it provides, not just to the U.S., but the world. (These are arguments I've actually heard after I started reading him and discussing him with old colleagues, and some of them are grounded in pretty robust understanding of how the U.S. economic system reduces the incentive of risk behavior--Just ask Russia how Ukraine is working out!). The reality is, the economic system can have benefits, but also be seriously bad-it depends on context, and the specifics of what's being discussed. The Iraq war can be bad, but a movie can still be about good things within it, or an inspiring story from it. (Even if it didn't really manage to achieve that.)
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
What is propaganda, Lithose? The most effective of propaganda never overtly says what it is. Never.

This movie ismore dangerousthan anything Taibbi could ever put to paper (or word doc), and he's completely right in his analysis. The cultural solution American society provides for our collective cognitive dissonance is to dumb-down, to simplify and make light of very twisted and complex issues, and that kind of dumbing-down is only made much worse when America is the reason behind the violence, genocide, or whatever the certain piece of media is trying to, as he puts it, turn into baby food.

The media surrounding the Vietnam War was no different. It wasn't savages - but heroes. What do you think Rambo FBP2 is? How many times did we show the effect war has on American soldiers? Platoon? Apocalypse Now? I guarantee you if you ask the average American to conjure up images of the Vietnam War, more than a few would have images of Stallone gunning down soldiers with an almost comic relief. THAT is dangerous.

As Chomsky pointed out, the best kinds of propaganda provide messages to which there's no argument or something no one would ever question. You never question policy because you should support our troops instead. That is exactly what this movie is. You're telling millions of Americans to turn their brains off and watch yet another piece of media that portrays the grit of war through the lens of American heroism. We've seen that already. Are we to feel good that Americans are theheroes again? Are we to feel sad or disgust at what this guy had to go through, and this piece of medianever oncequestions the cause, the policy behind it? Just feeling good or sympathy doesn't help us, help the average American, understand the complex situation that put him there in the first place - and THAT is Taibbi's point. And that is what's dangerous.

Re: Forrest Gump. I have no idea how you could see this movie any differently. Regardless of Taibbi's opinion, when you first watched, did you not wonder in amazement at how lucky he is? How so many good things seemed to happen to him? He never once thought about any of it - any of the issues or moral dilemmas in front of him. He just blindly when from outlandish situation to situation performing whatever he was to perform, and what was the narrative's explanation?Life is like a box of chocolates. Fucking really? Seriously? I'm sure life was like a box of fucking chocolates to civilians caught in Vietnamese crossfires, Mr. Gump.

I don't know how you could interpret that any differently except: 'don't think too much'. Or perhaps that the average American is retarded but successful anyway?

I'm not saying that that was the point the filmmaker's weretryingto make, but that's the point they certainly did. Like I said, that kind of thought-process is pervasive in American culture, one of stupid-izing everything that is complex or makes us uneasy. It's how America faces the moral problems it makes for itself, especially with regards to violence. And now, we have yet another war movie showing American heroes and the effect war has on them - and yet again, this media ignores the policy that puts those heroes there in the first place.

(As an exercise for seeing this dumbing-down in action, look at the difference in reception of that new videogame Hatred vs. GTA. The former would never be made in the US, and the latter was a hit among kids.).

Taibbi goes into more detail re: financial issues than any journalist I've ever read, and I've read them all. To equate what he's doing (exposing corruption and its tentacle-like influences) and this movie is a little asinine. C'mon Lith, Americans know the effect of war on soldiers; they don't know thefinancial history of Mitt Romney.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
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Well, show me someone else in American journalism that exposes the truth of our socioeconomic institutions and cultural norms to a similar degree and I'll happily direct my tongue elsewhere.
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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stop licking out peoples assholes

also it doesn't matter what a movie is about if everyone watches it, in practical terms it's going to be somewhere in everyones mind. even if you put matt taibbi on screen and everyone watched it by definition it's propaganda. before propaganda became a dirty word that's what it meant, disseminating information to the masses.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Um, Taibbi never has a political cause, point of view, or ideological bias in his writing. If you want to call disseminating truth or reality as it is, propaganda, so be it. Words have meanings though.
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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yeah and what was the original meaning before we slandered the germans for doing exactly what everyone else was doing? Truth is mostly subjective, almost every fact has multifaceted meanings and connections. Humans don't operate on "truth" they operate on meaning which is entirely a man made concept and part of the innate biology of our brains.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
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There is a reality to human activity. What happened in 2008, Vietnam, and Iraq were the results of human activity we can look at, analyze, and hopefully condemn. Truth then, is understanding the particular details of these activities and the motivations of the actors behind them. Now, we can sit here and get lost in the nebulousness of subjectivity, jump down biological or philosophical rabbit holes to further cloud this truth, or we can sit here and call it like it is. The policy behind the Iraqi War, however complex, has a truth to it. And that truth is found in the policy behind it, and so, we have to analyze the policy, not a soldier sniping Arabs and labeling him a hero as a result of that policy. That gets us nowhere and serves nothing but to get emotional support out of people for that policy (or i.e., propaganda).
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
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The same fucking bullshit biases you have. Which is why you have your tongue six feet up his ass.


And that truth is found in the policy behind it, and so, we have to analyze the policy, not a soldier sniping Arabs and labeling him a hero as a result of that policy. That gets us nowhere and serves nothing but to get emotional support out of people for that policy (or i.e., propaganda).
So basically any movie that isn't anti-war propaganda, you find as propaganda. Got it.
 

chaos

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Um, Taibbi never has a political cause, point of view, or ideological bias in his writing. If you want to call disseminating truth or reality as it is, propaganda, so be it. Words have meanings though.
Fuckin rofl. Ok dude, sure. Taibbi is a magical unicorn who only defends truth and righteousness, the only man on Earth that manages to control his biases 100% of the time. He is the hero we need, just not the hero we deserve.