Ancient Civilizations

Rajaah · Jul 22, 2023

Chukzombi said:
there used to be a show on History Channel before it become nonstop redneck reality shows and ancient aliens BULLSHIT. it was called, Life After People, they used scientists and scientific data with CG examples of how many years in the future before any traces of mankind was wiped off the map. with the exception of stoneworks like Hoover Dam and Mount Rushmore. it would take 10,000 years for the planet to erase almost every trace we have ever been here. here we are 12,000 years after the last great cataclysm. nothing exists now except for trace elements of bones and stoneworks we are left with to piece together what life was like back then. check out Life After People. episodes are free on Youtube now.

I would think that steelworks like skyscrapers would at least endure somewhat over a long time, but I'm probably wrong. Stoneworks are incredibly important, and our statues (that we're so eager to destroy) are going to be the only thing future people have to study from this era 3000 years from now.

Chukzombi · Jul 22, 2023

Rajaah said:
I would think that steelworks like skyscrapers would at least endure somewhat over a long time, but I'm probably wrong. Stoneworks are incredibly important, and our statues (that we're so eager to destroy) are going to be the only thing future people have to study from this era 3000 years from now.

skyscrapers are under constant maintenance. its extremely expensive to own one. its basically an albatross around your neck because whether business is good or bad or defunct. you stilll gotta pay the maintenance crew and make repairs on the skyscraper when needed. China built a ton of ghost cities and nobody maintains them so within just a few years they are already falling the fuck down.

Chris · Jul 23, 2023

Chukzombi said:
how about you start with actual satellite maps out now and look at the direct line of water from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic? it goes right through the Richat Structure. it clearly shows whatever caused that continental flood scoured everything in its path.

You need a map of elevation to back that up, lines on a map could mean many things. Are those areas actually at sea level?

Seems a bit high to be connected to the sea.

MusicForFish · Jul 23, 2023

Chris said:
You need a map of elevation to back that up, lines on a map could mean many things. Are those areas actually at sea level?

View attachment 483703

Seems a bit high to be connected to the sea.

What part of cataclysm wrecked shit did you not get?

Chris · Jul 23, 2023

MusicForFish said:
What part of cataclysm wrecked shit did you not get?

Can you describe the cataclysm?

MusicForFish · Jul 23, 2023

Chris said:
Can you describe the cataclysm?

I'm not drunk enough. Why don't you go to the isle of man and do a past life regression with one of the elder druids to experience it all yourself? Your lazy devils advocate shtick is really boring. Fuck Academia.

Chris · Jul 23, 2023

MusicForFish said:
I'm not drunk enough. Why don't you go to the isle of man and do a past life regression with one of the elder druids to experience it all yourself? Your lazy devils advocate shtick is really boring. Fuck Academia.

OK. I'm genuinely curious as to how a 400m high feature can be connected to the med and atlantic oceans. Seems like if the Sahara was watered, it would be via rain and not flooding because it is generally too high.

Chukzombi · Jul 23, 2023

Chris said:
OK. I'm genuinely curious as to how a 400m high feature can be connected to the med and atlantic oceans. Seems like if the Sahara was watered, it would be via rain and not flooding because it is generally too high.

watered? are you being British cheeky or something?

i know you people get a lot of rain over there, but i dont think a rainstorm can do this. you can see the flow of water that was created.

Chris · Jul 23, 2023

Chukzombi said:
watered? are you being British cheeky or something?

i know you people get a lot of rain over there, but i dont think a rainstorm can do this. you can see the flow of water that was created.

Not what I meant. If the Sahara was green in the past, it would be from rainfall, not from the Mediterranean somehow reaching across the Sarahara hundreds of meters above sea level.

What you are showing could be caused by anything. It could be a tsunami millions of years ago when the land was lower, it could be from wind over thousands of years...

You can't narrow it down to "mega tsunami exactly 10,000 years ago that wiped out Atlantis at 400m elevation from the Mediterranean Sea that only went in that one specific direction" without being an expert in the field. Where the fuck is that water coming from.

Seriously just find a map of the elevation of the area and show me the rivers Atlantis was using at 400m above sea level to be a trading port. It's on a giant hill, for context there are few places in the UK at that height and they are all barren moorlands left to sheep.

The World topographic map, elevation, terrain

Visualization and sharing of free topographic maps. The World, Dubai, United Arab Emirates.

en-gb.topographic-map.com

Araysar · Jul 23, 2023

The best argument against Richat Structure being Atlantis is if even if it was swept away by some mega tsunami, there would still be some traces left of an ancient civ.

Remnants of buildings, streets, household goods, pottery, coins, something. There isn't a single thing like that there.

Has there ever been an Atlantean coin ever discovered anywhere in the ancient world?

Edaw · Jul 23, 2023

Araysar said:
Has there ever been an Atlantean coin ever discovered anywhere in the ancient world?

What if they used crypto?

Chukzombi · Jul 23, 2023

Chris said:
Not what I meant. If the Sahara was green in the past, it would be from rainfall, not from the Mediterranean somehow reaching across the Sarahara hundreds of meters above sea level.

What you are showing could be caused by anything. It could be a tsunami millions of years ago when the land was lower, it could be from wind over thousands of years...

You can't narrow it down to "mega tsunami exactly 10,000 years ago that wiped out Atlantis at 400m elevation from the Mediterranean Sea that only went in that one specific direction" without being an expert in the field. Where the fuck is that water coming from.

Seriously just find a map of the elevation of the area and show me the rivers Atlantis was using at 400m above sea level to be a trading port. It's on a giant hill, for context there are few places in the UK at that height and they are all barren moorlands left to sheep.

View attachment 483719

The World topographic map, elevation, terrain

Visualization and sharing of free topographic maps. The World, Dubai, United Arab Emirates.

en-gb.topographic-map.com

12000 years ago the Sahara was full of water. why you cant comprehend this is beyond me. when the cataclysm hit. the water from the Med poured in to the water from the Sahara and overflowed causing a massive flood that emptied into the Atlantic. taking everything in its path with it.

Rajaah · Jul 23, 2023

Chukzombi said:
12000 years ago. funny how that date keeps showing up

As a noted player of retro video games, it's crazy how much of this Ancient Civs, and specifically "12,000 years ago" stuff pops up in RPGs... from the 1990's.

Chrono Trigger (1995) takes place over a bunch of different time periods, including 65M BC (the destruction of the dinosaurs) and 600 / 1000 AD (Dark and Middle Ages). All of them fairly roughly line up with those time periods in reality in terms of the state of the planet, development of civilization, etc, with a few goofy exceptions like 65M BC having early humans. In any case, there's a 12,000 BC time period and it goes WAY off the reservation compared to the rest. There's an advanced civilization with anti-gravity technology and scientific studies that far outpace the present day (in the game, or reality). Most of the planet is in an ice age and people are unkempt and live in hovels. However the people in the advanced civilization's city are well taken care of and essentially exist in a utopia. They even harness the power of the oceans and build a fortress in the water. Then cataclysm strikes and the advanced civilization gets destroyed by a great flood, after which the advanced people from it are forced to mix with the rest of humanity in the barren wasteland that remains. In this game the advanced civilization is destroyed by a cataclysm around 13,000 years before present.

Xenogears (1998) has a world history where humanity has been "reset" multiple times by different cataclysms taking place. There was an advanced city on the surface of the planet where all of the advanced / evolved people congregated, while the rest of humanity were treated like lambs and just kinda wandered the surface. So you have what is basically a Bronze Age level world/civilization with this one super-advanced city in the middle of it, and the people from that city view themselves as "overseers" for the rest of the world. Eventually a cataclysm destroys them. Oh and also humans came to the planet from some other world and what's left of their spaceships are now inexplicable rusted shells and towers dotting the surface world, with no one remembering that far back. In this game the first advanced civilization (the space-faring one) is destroyed by cataclysm around 10,000 years before present.

Ys V: Sand City of Kefin (1995) is obscure because it only got released in Japan. It takes place in...the northern area of "Afroca", a land where people travel between distant towns to maintain thriving trade routes, but it's being disrupted by the formation and encroachment of what is basically the Sahara over what used to be fields and rivers. One town after another gets consumed by the sands, never to be seen again, and people have to leave their homes as farmland becomes unusable and their perfect existence dries up. It's very reminiscent of the Sahara formation in the Younger Dryas, only obviously in fast-forward. OH, and also, the titular "Sand City of Kefin" was an advanced city where people mastered alchemy and used it to perform all kinds of miraculous engineering... until they disappeared off the face of the Earth 500 years ago when the desert began overtaking the whole area.

Final Fantasy X (2001) pretty much revolves around there being an advanced ancient civilization that was destroyed by a flood. Now in the aftermath, everything is relatively primitive, religion is the primary mover of society, and people are afraid to even set foot in the lands of the destroyed ancient civilization because it's a holy place. I think this one is much closer to the cataclysm, only taking place like 100-200 years later.

There are a bunch more but I'd be here all day.

The really weird thing is that some of these were made before mainstream science made certain discoveries, like the Sahara being a lush landscape / probable trade route once upon a time.

Rajaah · Jul 23, 2023

Chukzombi said:
12000 years ago the Sahara was full of water. why you cant comprehend this is beyond me. when the cataclysm hit. the water from the Med poured in to the water from the Sahara and overflowed causing a massive flood that emptied into the Atlantic. taking everything in its path with it.

Probably something like that. At the time Northern Africa was getting large amounts of rainfall and had huge lakes and rivers. Was also probably the location of the "Garden of Eden" in terms of being a lush place where modern humans were known to have "originated from" earlier.

Then they had a big ol' flood and it fucked everything up. Then the rain stopped, weather currents shifted around, the area dried up and became overcome by sand over thousands of years. There's your cataclysm. What used to be the world's most advanced civilization / trade route (Egypt to Richat) fell apart and the land became inhospitable. Then the desert formed a natural barrier and the Atlanteans/Nile people moved north to Europe and the Middle-East and created similar civilizations in those places while the sub-saharan folk migrated south and just sorta stayed there.

Richat isn't on top of a mountain so much as it is nestled into an area surrounded by mountains. There was very clearly a lake there and you can see where it drained to the Atlantic. Also 300 meters isn't gonna do much for you when there's a 2000-foot tidal wave going across a landscape. If the tidal wave came from the east, that's even worse for Richat because the mountain wouldn't serve as any kind of barrier, if anything it'd make some of the water double back over it and put the structure firmly underwater for a little while.

Yeah, Atlantis being a lost underwater city. Over time that developed into all kinds of legends and gave us Aquaman movies.

TJT · Jul 23, 2023

Chris is just being obtuse. When you have maps from the 16th century that somehow have the African interior even marginally correct despite the fact that we absolutely know the timeline of when Western/Middle Eastern civilizations actually explored the African interior you must conclude that they were looking at something when they put it together. Western civilization didn't call it the Dark Continent for no reason you know?

So the Prie Reis map is almost assuredly looking at older works that didn't survive into modern day. So we don't really know anything about them. Unless they're gathering dust in some old Turkish palace or something. When you put on your rocket surgeon hat and realize that the idea of a green Sahara not only exists in known historical records but also is a scientific fact I mean what more do you need? There was something there at some point. Obviously and that knowledge made it out of that area into Europe/Middle East and then many millennia later this works its way into maps that survived into modern day.

TJT · Jul 23, 2023

Chris said:
OK. I'm genuinely curious as to how a 400m high feature can be connected to the med and atlantic oceans. Seems like if the Sahara was watered, it would be via rain and not flooding because it is generally too high.

This is what I had thought as well but it seems the argument is more that the Western Sahara region wasn't so much right up on the coast but a flood marsh kind of area full of rivers and tributaries that fed into the sea. Rather than a coastal port town.

Rajaah · Jul 23, 2023

If I had the time machine from The Time Machine, of all the places in the world, the one I'd wheel it over to is the Richat area. Park it on the mountain overlooking the area, and start shifting back in time until I found the point where it formed. Just to answer this question. Would be pretty crazy to witness an actual great flood. Then I'd probably find out that Atlantis was a basically normal city of the era with impressive city planning (the ring formation) but nothing overly advanced or mind-blowing, where people walk around with camels and trade obsidian scarabs and cats.

Here's the Chrono Trigger "advanced civilization from 12,000 years ago". Just realized it's also a lake on a high plateau with a mountain behind it, funny coincidence.

Ys V: Sand City of Kefin intro, translated from Japanese. You can see a ringed city in the background of the first and second images. The city pre-dates the desert and is now lost.

Chris · Jul 23, 2023

Chukzombi said:
12000 years ago the Sahara was full of water. why you cant comprehend this is beyond me. when the cataclysm hit. the water from the Med poured in to the water from the Sahara and overflowed causing a massive flood that emptied into the Atlantic. taking everything in its path with it.

I'm not disputing that the Sahara could have been full of lakes and rivers 12k years ago, from rain fall.

I'm disputing that the Med can flow uphill into the Sahara and flood it. If it's flooding the Sahara it's flooding everything else and this is a time period in which sea levels were lower not higher. The water would just flow out by Gibraltar, even of it was blocked up it would still be the path of least resistance.

I'm posting elevation maps to show you that water would have to be flowing hundreds of meters upwards to get to the Richart Structure.

Chris · Jul 23, 2023

Rajaah said:
Richat isn't on top of a mountain so much as it is nestled into an area surrounded by mountains. There was very clearly a lake there and you can see where it drained to the Atlantic. Also 300 meters isn't gonna do much for you when there's a 2000-foot tidal wave going across a landscape. If the tidal wave came from the east, that's even worse for Richat because the mountain wouldn't serve as any kind of barrier, if anything it'd make some of the water double back over it and put the structure firmly underwater for a little while.

It's literally on top of a big hill. It would have been a lake yes, but a lake on top of a 400m hill that is the tallest or close to tallest nearby.

You don't build your capital city trading port miles inland on top of a hill with no navigable river because hills are where rivers start as tiny steams.

2000 foot tall tsunamis are not going to be originating in the Med and travelling that far, you are beliving in magic and miracles to make the evidence fit.

Here is a real tsunami that happened in the time period and helped flood Doggerland for reference, it was 100 foot high max: Storegga Slide - Wikipedia

Please guys, look at the elevation map I posted and engage your own brains about how water flows.

Araysar · Jul 23, 2023

Rajaah said:
What used to be the world's most advanced civilization / trade route (Egypt to Richat) fell apart and the land became inhospitable. Then the desert formed a natural barrier and the Atlanteans/Nile people moved north to Europe and the Middle-East and created similar civilizations in those places while the sub-saharan folk migrated south and just sorta stayed there.

If it was a trade route there would have been evidence of trade able goods.at Richat but there's nothing there. The only artifacts at Richat are stone axes and stone blades because it's a rock formation were prehistoric people made tools.

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