Ancient Civilizations

TJT · May 25, 2024

Chris said:
The likelihood is that Atlantis is a composite myth referencing multiple real events and places. Like King Arthur, Robin Hood or dare I say... Jesus.

So there's people known out past Gibraltar (Spanish/Moroccan Coast or even Canaries/Azores), there's ancient seafearing civilisations half remembered (Phoenicians/Sea People), there are known destroyed cities (Thera eruption destroying whatever was on Santorini or the Minoans on Crete), there's cities with elaborate earthworks and better technology...

So you slam it all together to make whatever allegory Plato was trying to make like he's an ancient JRR Tolkien. Fiction wasn't suddenly invented a few hundred years ago!

But nobody went around the world making pyramids, because they would leave archeology, linguistics and genetics behind. Unless it's magic which is what ancient astronaut theorists always fall back on to explain away anything that disproves this shit.

I am fascinated by ancient mysteries, lost civilisations and sunken lands. I remember reading about Mu and Lemuria as a kid. But there's real stuff that fascinating (Gobekli Tepe etc), we don't need to keep beliving this.

In my opinion the better evidence that some civilization more advanced than we realize existed is simply knowledge that does exist in the historical record. But the origin of said knowledge is unknown and it was highly unlikely scholars of the period had any way of knowing.

Like gobekli tepi had a level of advancement 7k years prior to the "best available evidence" we had. This does not mean space age technology or anything like that. Just they were far more into the bronze age or even iron age technology than should have been possible.

So we see things like ancient Greeks having somehow learned that the the Sahara used to be nice and green and that was 8 thousand years before them. That was passed down through the ages somehow and this was also true. Similarly "Atlantis" was also passed down through the ages and has some real truth to it. Whatever it may be. I don't find the idea that Atlantis being a civilization that existed during the African humid period being too far off course or unrealistic.

Other things like middle ages maps that had landmasses on them they shouldn't have known about or the interior of Africa mapped with some degree of accuracy centuries before they should have and also depict African humid period tell us that something was indeed there. Likely under a mountain of sand at this point.

Chris · May 25, 2024

TJT said:
Like gobekli tepi had a level of advancement 7k years prior to the "best available evidence" we had. This does not mean space age technology or anything like that. Just they were far more into the bronze age or even iron age technology than should have been possible.

What are you talking about?

Gobekli Tepi technology is crudely carved pillars, we just didn't have any evidence of hunter gatherers building structures that far back.

As for the other stuff, cartography errors and oral history are well understood. People are getting too excited over almost nothing.

Chukzombi · May 25, 2024

Chris said:
What are you talking about?

Gobekli Tepi technology is crudely carved pillars, we just didn't have any evidence of hunter gatherers building structures that far back.

As for the other stuff, cartography errors and oral history are well understood. People are getting too excited over almost nothing.

crudely carved?

also keep in mind this has been weathered for 13000 years and some of the finer details have been worn away

Siddar · May 26, 2024

Well by the standards of say years 300 BC to 200 AD that those are in fact crudely carved.

Chukzombi · May 26, 2024

Siddar said:
Well by the standards of say years 300 BC to 200 AD that those are in fact crudely carved.

Iron age tools are more precise. But then you have some of the most intricate carvings in history dating back 3 or 4000 years in ancient Egypt. Supposedly during the bronze age. It's all a big mess of tech timelines. They don't want to admit that some earlier civs had tech way more advanced than others. Maybe they don't want to seem racist or something so they lump everyone in to certain ages. That's basically what the Ancient Civ people have been arguing for decades. Just admit that there are no ages and that each civ developed tech in its own timeline independent of others. Stop trying to put diorite pounding balls behind all these ancient Egyptian structures. If they were that efficient than nobody would bother advancing to iron.

Siddar · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi said:
Iron age tools are more precise. But then you have some of the most intricate carvings in history dating back 3 or 4000 years in ancient Egypt. Supposedly during the bronze age. It's all a big mess of tech timelines. They don't want to admit that some earlier civs had tech way more advanced than others. Maybe they don't want to seem racist or something so they lump everyone in to certain ages. That's basically what the Ancient Civ people have been arguing for decades. Just admit that there are no ages and that each civ developed tech in its own timeline independent of others. Stop trying to put diorite pounding balls behind all these ancient Egyptian structures. If they were that efficient than nobody would bother advancing to iron.

Who doesn't want to admit that ancients didn't have skilled artists?

Chukzombi · May 26, 2024

Siddar said:
Who doesn't want to admit that ancients didn't have skilled artists?

Skilled artists, no. Precision metal tooling. Yes. They want to attribute everything to diorite pounding stones and bronze saws because that's all they were supposed to have. But the utterly off the charts precise stone carvings achieved 4000 years ago contradicts that narrative. So the established science community has been at war with ancient high tech people for years.

Siddar · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi said:
Skilled artists, no. Precision metal tooling. Yes. They want to attribute everything to diorite pounding stones and bronze saws because that's all they were supposed to have. But the utterly off the charts precise stone carvings achieved 4000 years ago contradicts that narrative. So the established science community has been at war with ancient high tech people for years.

Then produce the metal tooling, don't just claim it but prove it.

You're confusing the desire of the professionals involved in archeology to prove what ever there claiming is true before claiming it, with a conspiracy to hide things.

Chris · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi said:
crudely carved?

also keep in mind this has been weathered for 13000 years and some of the finer details have been worn away

Yeah it's caveman tier art, it's really derpy. Maybe the Ancient Atlanteans didn't fuck anyone because these people were so stupid that they couldn't even carve cartoon animals convincingly even after being given metal tools that later mysteriously evaporated.

I'm being harsh, I can appreciate the age and historical importance of it, but I've been to Luxor. I had to learn about the Bayeux Tapestry three times at school so I feel entitled to critique bad art.

Chris · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi said:
They don't want to admit that some earlier civs had tech way more advanced than others. Maybe they don't want to seem racist or something so they lump everyone in to certain ages. That's basically what the Ancient Civ people have been arguing for decades. Just admit that there are no ages and that each civ developed tech in its own timeline independent of others. Stop trying to put diorite pounding balls behind all these ancient Egyptian structures. If they were that efficient than nobody would bother advancing to iron.

Who are "they"? Is it the Jews again?

Archeologists do say that civs developed in their own timelines with cross contamination via trade.

Iron wasn't really an advancement in materials afaik, it was just easier to find and make once the process had been figured out, so way more people could use it. Steel was the advancement.

This is actually another argument against Atlantis. People were doing things like using Tin from England and Copper from Turkey to make Bronze. The metals can be analysed for their origins. They haven't found metals from the Americas appearing in Europe.

So not only did they not fuck anyone, they didn't trade with anyoone either.

Chukzombi said:
Skilled artists, no. Precision metal tooling. Yes. They want to attribute everything to diorite pounding stones and bronze saws because that's all they were supposed to have. But the utterly off the charts precise stone carvings achieved 4000 years ago contradicts that narrative. So the established science community has been at war with ancient high tech people for years.

Are chisels ancient high tech? As amazing as the egyptian stuff is, it's mostly 2D carvings. I'm more impressed by the paint they used that's still visible in many places.

Greeks made better statues, what extra tools did they have?

MusicForFish · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi · May 26, 2024

Siddar said:
Then produce the metal tooling, don't just claim it but prove it.

You're confusing the desire of the professionals involved in archeology to prove what ever there claiming is true before claiming it, with a conspiracy to hide things.

The metal that's 4000 years old? There isn't much of anything, even the bronze saws that supposedly carved the Sarappeum. Everything was also recycled back then. They didn't hang in a trophy case. When that tool was used and worn, they most likely melted it down to make a new tool or something else. It's not like now where we throw everything away when we get tired of it. Resources were limited. That doesn't mean the most useless tools such as bronze saws and diorite pounding stones get the nod just because nobody had any use for them so they're still laying around. To date, nobody has carved a block of granite with either of those things.

Chris said:
Who are "they"? Is it the Jews again?

Archeologists do say that civs developed in their own timelines with cross contamination via trade.

Iron wasn't really an advancement in materials afaik, it was just easier to find and make once the process had been figured out, so way more people could use it. Steel was the advancement.

This is actually another argument against Atlantis. People were doing things like using Tin from England and Copper from Turkey to make Bronze. The metals can be analysed for their origins. They haven't found metals from the Americas appearing in Europe.

So not only did they not fuck anyone, they didn't trade with anyoone either.

Are chisels ancient high tech? As amazing as the egyptian stuff is, it's mostly 2D carvings. I'm more impressed by the paint they used that's still visible in many places.

Greeks made better statues, what extra tools did they have?

You have very limited knowledge of Ancient Egyptian artifacts. You are wrong on so many levels. You obviously have never seen anything from there or gone to see all the stolen Egyptian artifacts at a British museum

Chris · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi said:
You have very limited knowledge of Ancient Egyptian artifacts. You are wrong on so many levels. You obviously have never seen anything from there or gone to see all the stolen Egyptian artifacts at a British museum

I've been to Karnak, Valley of the Kings, Temple of Hapshepsut, Colossi of Memnon and The British Museum.

How about you?

We were talking about carvings, I've seen them in person and they are great, but it's a relatively shallow chisel it's not a mystery.

If you want to talk about the quarrying and transportation of giant blocks, I don't know anything about quarrying and I suspect you don't either. The majority are smaller blocks in softer stone, for the smaller number of giant blocks or harder stone blocks then yeah they would have put a lot more effort in and may have had some lost techniques.

If you want to talk about smaller artefacts, they probably had highly secretive sculptors and jewelers who had very few sets of better tools from meteor iron or whatever and it's all been lost.

What they didn't have is electricity/ley line energy or Atlantean knowledge or modern machined tools they got from aliens/interdimensional beings.

Rajaah · May 26, 2024

Scientists dumbstruck by discovery of 'strange underwater road'

It’s not quite the lost city of Atlantis, but scientists have just uncovered a slice of history that had been swallowed up by the sea.Experts admitted that even they were surprised when divers unearthed a 7,000-year-old stone road that had lain buried under layers of sea mud.The ancient...

www.indy100.com

Underwater mediterranean road from 7,000 years ago.

Chukzombi · May 26, 2024

Chris said:
I've been to Karnak, Valley of the Kings, Temple of Hapshepsut, Colossi of Memnon and The British Museum.

How about you?

We were talking about carvings, I've seen them in person and they are great, but it's a relatively shallow chisel it's not a mystery.

If you want to talk about the quarrying and transportation of giant blocks, I don't know anything about quarrying and I suspect you don't either. The majority are smaller blocks in softer stone, for the smaller number of giant blocks or harder stone blocks then yeah they would have put a lot more effort in and may have had some lost techniques.

If you want to talk about smaller artefacts, they probably had highly secretive sculptors and jewelers who had very few sets of better tools from meteor iron or whatever and it's all been lost.

What they didn't have is electricity/ley line energy or Atlantean knowledge or modern machined tools they got from aliens/interdimensional beings.

maybe you were there, but if all you saw were 2d figures, then you had your head up your ass.

just an example of things not in 2d and a chisel or pounding stones are not capable of achieving.

*What they didn't have is electricity/ley line energy or Atlantean knowledge or modern machined tools they got from aliens/interdimensional beings.*
nobody here ever says these things. only you do.
Atlantis wasnt magic, it was just a lost city, likely a colony off one of the other ancient civs like Greece or ancient Egypt. or Atlantis was first and they moved to those places when their city got wiped out. thats not very magical. you should pay attention to whats been presented here over the years. maybe you wont be so dismissive and ignorant.

Rajaah · May 26, 2024

Kharzette said:
BTW back to the atlanteans, even though most humans are really fairly close, I sometimes really feel the differences. Looking at how world war 2 went (the real stuff, not the fake crap in the history books)

What do you mean with "the real stuff" and "the fake crap in the history books"?

I'm guessing something to do with how the Germans and Italians were met with no organized resistance whatsoever in Africa or the Middle East, if that's what even happened there.

Rajaah · May 26, 2024

Daidraco said:
But you're speaking in absolutes about something that is theoretical in the first place?

Looks like I return to this thread after a year and Chris is still shitting up this thread by speaking in absolutes about people's Atlantis theories.

Chris said:
They travelled around the world, had colonies where they built pyramids, but they didn't fuck anyone and had negligable people on ships or colonies to the point that they have no genetic record. It doesn't make sense.

Meanwhile Spainish people fucked and colonised so much that everyone in Central America has their genetics and there are white Mexicans still.

Atlantean DNA probably IS Spanish DNA.

Atlas Mountains, Catalan, and so on. The civilization probably only spanned Spain, Morocco, Mauritania, Egypt and the humid pre-Sahara land in-between. I don't really think Atlanteans spanned the globe, or had their entire city on an island. That'd make it kind of hard to be a "trade civilization". More likely they simply had a large lake around the city that formed multiple moats. AKA the Richat Structure being in what looks like it could have once been an elevated basin. You would have had to take the ocean route to GET there by going past Spain (Catalan) and the Atlas Mountains, then boom, a river inlet leads right to the Richat area, and then you have another river going east from there straight through the humid mainland to connect to the Nile.

Waterways were the "trade routes" of the era and natural pathways in that sense.

So when the flood happened, or the Sahara overtook everything over a couple thousand years, or both, then the Atlanteans scattered to Egypt, India, etc like

Kharzette said, and brought their steppe-people DNA with them. As I think Spain was a major Atlantean territory (given that I think Catalan was originally "Atlas' Land", like so many other "lan" names in the world), then chances are that's where a lot of them resided after things in Africa went to shit.

But this is all just speculation.

Chris · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi said:
maybe you were there, but if all you saw were 2d figures, then you had your head up your ass.

just an example of things not in 2d and a chisel or pounding stones are not capable of achieving.

*What they didn't have is electricity/ley line energy or Atlantean knowledge or modern machined tools they got from aliens/interdimensional beings.*
nobody here ever says these things. only you do.
Atlantis wasnt magic, it was just a lost city, likely a colony off one of the other ancient civs like Greece or ancient Egypt. or Atlantis was first and they moved to those places when their city got wiped out. thats not very magical. you should pay attention to whats been presented here over the years. maybe you wont be so dismissive and ignorant.

Don't think you are reading my posts properly when you apply my comments on hieroglyphic carving to masonry stones, when I mentioned both separately in my post.

If every stone was like the one in your picture, then yeah something is wrong, but there are very few like that so they would have taken unusual effort.

If Atlantis isn't magic then what's the point of it?

Chukzombi · May 26, 2024

Chris said:
Don't think you are reading my posts properly when you apply my comments on hieroglyphic carving to masonry stones, when I mentioned both separately in my post.

If every stone was like the one in your picture, then yeah something is wrong, but there are very few like that so they would have taken unusual effort.

If Atlantis isn't magic then what's the point of it?

there are many such "boxes" in Egypt. thats not the only one. Atlantis was a major trade hub and thats enough to make it very important. whatever they considered magic back then is likely just more advanced tech witnessed by peoples who werent accustomed to such things. much of the ancient world came from wooden huts and had no concept of stone structures and advanced construction methods.

Chris · May 26, 2024

Chukzombi said:
there are many such "boxes" in Egypt. thats not the only one. Atlantis was a major trade hub and thats enough to make it very important. whatever they considered magic back then is likely just more advanced tech witnessed by peoples who werent accustomed to such things. much of the ancient world came from wooden huts and had no concept of stone structures and advanced construction methods.

How many giant granite blocks over a few thousand years? Not saying this is how it was, but they could have spent 100 years on each one.

I meant that Atlantis has to be magic to us. Like let's say that Altantis was on Thera and used the magma to smelt Steel chisels (that nobody else could melt down and repurpose by the way...) What problems does that solve? Then why couldn't the Egyptians figure that out themselves?

This is why I keep bringing up Ancient Aliens shit because most Atlantis theorists end up talking about ley line energy and acoustic levitation... otherwise what's the point? Some irrelevent Greek colony existed on the Azores and did fuck all?

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