Ashes of Creation

Pasteton

Pasteton

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Finding off the map and unintendedly accessible areas for planting trees, mostly in pcp zones, was some of the most fun I’ve had in mmos since eq pretty much. Early on it was a very small group of folks that knew of these spots and it lead to some really fun pvp and profits. The underwater content early on was also cool as so little info was out there.

I think we justconstantly underestimate how much of our fun is derived from experiencing the unknown. It’s just so rare and fleeting to have that experience with mmos these days and Archeage was one of the few that briefly had it. If I were Steven I would go out of my way to purposely put lots of Easter eggs and ridiculously hidden areas in zones , and have enormous convoluted and entirely hidden quest lines (think - to speak like a dragon from eq2)and release absolutely no info on them whatsoever.
 
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Ikkan

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I think one of the biggest differences between AoC and Pantheon streams is AoC going "hey this may look bad but here's progress!" and Pantheon going "we aren't gonna show it to you now but when we do it's gonna be AAA". I really enjoy the gradual AoC streams.
 
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Sylas

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the other major difference is AOC is a game in development and pantheon is some dudes drawings on bar napkins.
 
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Xerge

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I mean there's that difference and the fact one game delivered something playable
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tower

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Cybsled said:
IMO they need to do the following to make sure subscribers stay subscribed:

1) The honeymoon period with travel times/mechanics in these types of games is fairly limited. You've got maybe 1-2 months before tedious travel becomes a burden to enjoying the game. Running from Town A to Town B the first dozen times can be exciting. It becomes a chore when you've done it 100 times.

2) They really need to tone down the loss on death, because shitty balance will cause the forums to go ballistic. Even if someone has the stomach to risk loss on PVP death, even those types of players will have an extremely limited tolerance if they perceive their loss due to bad balancing (either their class is underpowered, or another is overpowered). Anything with cheesy stunlock or insta-gib mechanics will become the early meta, as gankers look to enrich themselves at the expense of other players, who will be more likely to quit as a result

3) They need to tone down the loss for town citizens in event of a war - I presume this won't be an immediate issue, but once the various powers get situated, it will quickly become an issue. PVErs in these games hate it when they lose their hard work due to PVP. I'm sure the regular PVP crowd will be "dur dur, pvp game, f off carebear". But the truth of the matter is PVErs tend to be the most stable MMO population type. PVErs tend to quit once they get dunked on enough in the game. If you shit on the PVErs, you're shitting on a large paying playerbase.
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This game is built on the archetype of a Lineage/Archeage kMMO PK grinder with a side appeal to western DAOC/Guild Wars RvR types.

It's not going to be a game for pure PvErs in the dynamic that we think of them. There are some PvE types who really enjoy crafting and being the person behind the curtain people rely on for things but this is by design a much smaller base of people than the fast casual dungeon/raiders most imagine when you say 'PvErs'

Yeah, the market is much bigger for fast food and fast casual than it is for sit downs these days. But here's the thing: You're not winning that market. The PvErs already have WoW and FFXIV. You're not getting them off those games - maybe there's an opportunity to replace WoW but you know what you need to do that? A shitload of Money. And you know who has that? Riot. Not you

The market for a PvP MMO is over 1mil players these days, easily. New World is a great example of that given they got there for however short a time despite their many failures in development. They started out as a Survival game, then evolved to being a western RvR game that might have some aesthetic appeal to the PK grinders and then by launch had completely abandoned that. Adding in QoL got them from flatlined to faint pulse but it's a failed game either way

You're right that sustaining a PvP MMO is probably not gonna happen these days. But abandoning your design to try to pander to a userbase you didn't design your game for just isn't going to work - that's, in fact, exactly what New World did! Your best bet is to recoup your costs with the launch and hope it's good enough that word of mouth tricks the masses into playing it and maybe you can throw them some bones should they start. That most likely wont work but putting in stuff that will enrage your core base will guarantee failure - if you have a 5% chance of succeeding youre still better off trying to make that work than reducing that number to 0%
 
Cybsled

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tower said:
The market for a PvP MMO is over 1mil players these days, easily. New World is a great example of that given they got there for however short a time despite their many failures in development. They started out as a Survival game, then evolved to being a western RvR game that might have some aesthetic appeal to the PK grinders and then by launch had completely abandoned that. Adding in QoL got them from flatlined to faint pulse but it's a failed game either way
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Keep in mind many of those PVP legacy mechanics are what drove people away from New World: Expensive travel, punitive storage, PVP allowing a small number of people to dictate the play experience of the rest of the server

AoC essentially wants to replicate all that stuff that people rejected, and wants to stack item loss on top of that and when a city gets defeated, you lose a lot of your shit in the city as a resident.
 
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rhinohelix

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tower said:
This game is built on the archetype of a Lineage/Archeage kMMO PK grinder with a side appeal to western DAOC/Guild Wars RvR types.

It's not going to be a game for pure PvErs in the dynamic that we think of them. There are some PvE types who really enjoy crafting and being the person behind the curtain people rely on for things but this is by design a much smaller base of people than the fast casual dungeon/raiders most imagine when you say 'PvErs'

Yeah, the market is much bigger for fast food and fast casual than it is for sit downs these days. But here's the thing: You're not winning that market. The PvErs already have WoW and FFXIV. You're not getting them off those games - maybe there's an opportunity to replace WoW but you know what you need to do that? A shitload of Money. And you know who has that? Riot. Not you

The market for a PvP MMO is over 1mil players these days, easily. New World is a great example of that given they got there for however short a time despite their many failures in development. They started out as a Survival game, then evolved to being a western RvR game that might have some aesthetic appeal to the PK grinders and then by launch had completely abandoned that. Adding in QoL got them from flatlined to faint pulse but it's a failed game either way

You're right that sustaining a PvP MMO is probably not gonna happen these days. But abandoning your design to try to pander to a userbase you didn't design your game for just isn't going to work - that's, in fact, exactly what New World did! Your best bet is to recoup your costs with the launch and hope it's good enough that word of mouth tricks the masses into playing it and maybe you can throw them some bones should they start. That most likely wont work but putting in stuff that will enrage your core base will guarantee failure - if you have a 5% chance of succeeding youre still better off trying to make that work than reducing that number to 0%
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It wasn't the pandering that killed New World, it was the unfinished/buggy state it launched in. If you think there are 1 million+ MMO PVPers looking for "good fights", there are multiple bridges I have to sell you. The only game with that description that ever really made it was Eve Online. Will Ashes make it with its current design? We'll have to see. Full PVP is certainly going to hurt its appeal though.
 
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mkopec

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Yeah for sure, there was just not enough PvE content in New World to keep people playing. And the PvP was just a side show and maybe a bit more for just a few that were lucky to be in guilds that participated. Lets say a server of 2K with about 4-5 guilds that participated in the 50 v 50 city battles. Thats like 200-250 people that got to participate in the end game pvp out of 2000-2500, I think it was like 3000 on their newer MEGA servers. Rest of the guilds could not field enough players and maybe if they did, they got their shit stomped in so bad the first war that they never tried again or just ended up falling apart.

I jsut think PVP in these games is not enough to keep people playing long term. Sure, have your PvP battlegrounds and arenas and the such for those that enjoy PvP, but long term any mmo game that focuses on mass PVP and territory control type BS just does not last.

IDK I cant think of one PVP focused MMO game that really made it. Shit people talk all giddy about DAOC back in the day but I rememeber that game had like 80K peak players, at a time where EQ had like 400K and did not last all that long in the long term.
 
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Cinge

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If there is any kind of pay for power, I dont care if its something like labor in AA or increased chance on upgrades, or just downright power, it will die even faster then a normal pvp game would.
 
tower

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rhinohelix said:
It wasn't the pandering that killed New World, it was the unfinished/buggy state it launched in. If you think there are 1 million+ MMO PVPers looking for "good fights", there are multiple bridges I have to sell you. The only game with that description that ever really made it was Eve Online. Will Ashes make it with its current design? We'll have to see. Full PVP is certainly going to hurt its appeal though.
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There are 1mil+ people who think they want it. What you're suggesting is there aren't 1mil+ people who will hang around after they find out theyre the losers. And youre probably right there

You're not turning Ashes of Creation into a game that it isnt at this stage, though. It's already asking a lot for it to become the game it's supposed to be.
 
Uriel

Uriel

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EVE died off because of the greed and bad design of the developers/pulbishers, not because it was a pvp MMO. It was very successful for a long time, with a very dedicated playerbase. If AoC holds true to its design, listens to players and doesn't give in to greed, it has a guaranteed spot in the market. Steven also covered griefing, corruption and their design goals for pvp in the latest stream, go watch it if you're worried about that. Making a game that appeals strongly to a certain group is much better than making a game trying to weakly appeal to everyone I think, its why EVE was so popular with pvpers and EQ prog servers are still really popular, they fill a niche that isn't otherwise present. As a sub based game with additional cosmetic purchases, AoC needs a dedicated playerbase, not casuals who play one month a year. They shouldn't design it for everyone.
 
rhinohelix

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Uriel said:
EVE died off because of the greed and bad design of the developers/pulbishers, not because it was a pvp MMO. It was very successful for a long time, with a very dedicated playerbase. If AoC holds true to its design, listens to players and doesn't give in to greed, it has a guaranteed spot in the market. Steven also covered griefing, corruption and their design goals for pvp in the latest stream, go watch it if you're worried about that. Making a game that appeals strongly to a certain group is much better than making a game trying to weakly appeal to everyone I think, its why EVE was so popular with pvpers and EQ prog servers are still really popular, they fill a niche that isn't otherwise present. As a sub based game with additional cosmetic purchases, AoC needs a dedicated playerbase, not casuals who play one month a year. They shouldn't design it for everyone.
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Has Eve died off? While it may not be what it was, and I don't hear the big stories anymore, it doesn't *seem* dead, looking at the various MMO population sites. I have been watching AoC, via Narc, and we'll see if its something I want to put much time into. I played a fair bit of Eve but I prefer PvE and flagged/battleground PVP.
 
Uriel

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It's not dead, but not what it was in the heyday where most of the cool stories come from.

evePop.png
 
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Kirun

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Games like Tarkov and such where you "lose" something in PvP show that there is definitely a "market" for such gameplay. The issue becomes that it doesn't appear that market is all that large.
 
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Cybsled

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Right, there is a market but a extremely small one. I'm not sure how much money is being pumped into AoC, but a small market presumably isn't what they need to break even.

I don't doubt that AoC will have a big initial launch population. But if they decide to keep this Shadowbane style PVP gameplay, they're going to see a Shadowbane style population crash after about a month or so.
 
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Sylas

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mkopec said:
IDK I cant think of one PVP focused MMO game that really made it. Shit people talk all giddy about DAOC back in the day but I rememeber that game had like 80K peak players, at a time where EQ had like 400K and did not last all that long in the long term.
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others have mentioned Eve Online already, but i'd like to point out that Eve Online had more subs (550k) than EQ1 (450k) at their peaks, and held more subs for much, much longer than EQ1 did, and that game has been around since 2003. So a dedicated PVP fanbase exists just not for a game that is also trying to be a theme park with quests and shit. Or rather, any game where progression is measured by PVE content, sucks for PVP. look at FPS or MOBA or Battle Royal or RTS or any other pvp focused game. The moment you gotta grind mobs or quests or something to gain power to be more effective than another player it changes the dynamics psychologically for players. Sure mobas you grind some mobs for about 30 seconds and level up but it's not the same at all. Eve works because progression is based entirely on time. And there's plenty of ways to make money including killing other people and taking their shit.

I played Eve online for over half a decade and I never once did any PVE content in it.

EQ1 really only peak time was 2001-2004 (1999-2000 it was still growing), and WoW killed it. Where as Eve peaked in 2006-2014 and really only started losing subs around 2018 or so due to shitty development choices. While EQ's devs were being bought and sold for the IP, Eve's devs were wasting money buying paperback RPGs (white wolf) and building FPS for consoles (Dust 514). For nearly a decade Eve Online was like the 2nd biggest export of Iceland behind fishing. talking mountains of money made and wasted on walking in stations and shit.

TLDR: Yes there's a dedicated pvp playerbase out there but I don't think AOC is going to really appeal to it. It'll do Warhammer launch and end up with DAOC numbers.
edit: Another reason Eve works as a PVP game is that progression while not based on PVE, is also almost entirely horizontal rather than vertical. someone with years more time than you can play more "classes" than you can, but when you are both playing the same class, even if you are brand new, he's only like 2% more effective. Anyway i better stop before i start ranting about how dumb levels are again. see Monster and Memories thread for more rants.
 
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Kirun

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Cybsled said:
Right, there is a market but a extremely small one.
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Eh, I wouldn't say it's "extremely" small. Tarkov usually has around 100-150k concurrent players. There is definitely enough to make a profit and games like Albion have shown that as long as you're willing to be "niche", there's money out there for PvP-focused games.
 
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