Ashes of Creation

Grabbit Allworth

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The people who only lost the Steam cost are fortunate. There were people that spent 100s (some in the 1000s) on the early cosmetic packs and testing phases.

I loosely followed this game throughout its life, but never played it because I didn't want to get excited and then have the rug pulled. I never felt anything more than cautious optimism because what they were trying to do was too wide and too deep.

Not to mention, the way PvP was implemented was always going to make this a niche game and it was always going to be incredibly difficult to make back the massive investment this game required.

Still sucks. I was really looking forward to it, but I'm glad I kept it at an arms length.
 
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Warrik

Potato del Grande
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This video has a lot of the background... the TLDR, this 100% is one big giant scam and rug pull, this dude has the receipts:

 
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Cinge

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Like someone mentioned earlier. People just need to stop giving these companies money until they at least try it themselves or wait for a couple days after release, so you can watch videos/streams and/or read reviews about.

It's hard to dig up any sympathy for anyone that paid for cosmetics for a game not out yet. Or the more asinine paying to get into testing phases. Pretty sure earlier in this thread people were ragging on the idiots that paid $500 for some package just so they can play in alpha/beta.

Lets go back to the days of invite only betas and then a open beta or beta weekends that let people try for free and if its good drives people to the game.
 

moonarchia

The Scientific Shitlord
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I let myself get sucked into Pantheon last year by Daidraco Daidraco and everyone else when they did their Early Alpha release on steam. I don't regret it. Got a lot of play time out of those 2 accounts, but it did remind me why I try to avoid putting $$$ into things that aren't fully released. Glad I waited on this one.
 
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Gravel

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I think it rings more surprising simply because the game is for the most part, playable. I didnt mind putting my money towards the game because I saw a product that I thought could eventually exist in its own space.


I think this games fault was mostly scope creep and trying new things that havent been done before. Scott reminded me a lot of Todd Howard when he talks about Fall Out or Elder Scrolls etc. Every time I turned around over the last, what, 9 years, the ideas became more and more grandiose.

The backend architecture with that server to server thing that basically segmented the load into smaller and smaller units, was it really necessary? It still, to this day, doesnt work "well" - and theyve been working on that for years. Then, the storyboard mechanics where each and every province would have its own story and quests. A lot of work and spinning wheels just to get shit ready for zones that havent even been created. The city thing was unique and novel, too. Where the whole settlement would go through layers of transition, and it would basically just load different "chunks" depending on its level. But that didnt work well either, as even in the steam release - you're falling through into the "hole" that those chunks resided in. Never mind the whole idea behind the city, built on the backs of PVE, being destroyed by PVP as people have mentioned. (New World, Im looking at you too.) Then, as far as individual mechanics where your caravan would transition to a raft and back again.. How often that mechanic, and mechanics like that.. how often would they be used? But you put a lot of dev time into that to make it work? We can literally go back to most of the videos of touting a new feature of the game and see how they just were, for the most part, reinventing the wheel or worse, putting the cart before the horse in terms of what should be developed first.

Never mind that the entire noobie experience is just awful. Even after the bit of refinement they did after steam launch - it just sucked. There are so many Quality of Life additions that happened in the genre since its inception that going back just kind of fucking sucks. Even with the very, very limited hand holding they do - it abruptly ends at roughly level 5 and then they expect you to "find your way." The map is awful. No LFG tool. Dropping items on death in a PVE death, never mind the exp loss and repair. Gearing in general just being awful. Spreading people out HOURS apart with no quick travel? "Hey man. Want to come up to the most northern part of the world, that is literally an hour+ to get to and exp with us?" Expect the response "Hey man. We're going to call it. Sorry!"

I could go on and on about my dissatisfaction with the game, and I just dont think Im alone. For the amount of money they put into the game, I just dont think I would have made anywhere near the same choices that were made. Or in other words, if I was putting a huge portion of my net worth into making a game - I would have made a game a fraction of the size and perfected that core experience. I mean think about the sheer size of the team that Shariff had going for this game? Wasnt it HUNDREDS of people? Just pure disappointment that this game didnt deliver.
Sounds like you'd have a blast in the MnM thread.
 

Tide27

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I really dont understand what the problem is here with making mmos. Look at the big ones like wow, eq and others like DAOC and AO....They were all done at times where the tools to make them were shit, no one knew WTF they were doing because they were a new thing, way less people involved and yet they were able to ship a finished, or near finished product in 1/2 the time. Yeah some had bugs or whatever but most were fixed within a few patches to be 90% working.

We are in a time where they have the tools to make content faster, tons of mmos on the market, PVE and PVP so they pretty much know WTF works and what doesnt. I mean we dont have to reinvent the fucking wheel here.

I think it all boils down to too many people involved. Shit leadership that cant make good decisions and plan of action.

shit the devs of WOW even gave them the secret sauce on how to make them way back in early 2Ks in their interviews on how they did it. and how they made it all FUN.
I think a lot of it boils down to the games are made for the wrong audience.

Each company it seems keeps trying make pvp a main draw and focus, when really only a fraction of the mmo players want pvp, and even much less for the game to be built around it.

Anytime systems are designed with pvp and factions that are required to make it work, the end up failing quick because everyone just jumps to the winning side or quits playing altogether.

Even the almighty WoW was like this, as they had like 200 pve servers, and like 5% of that in pvp servers, and every pvp server ended up being 99% / 1% faction imbalance.
 
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rhinohelix

Dental Dammer
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I think a lot of it boils down to the games are made for the wrong audience.

Each company it seems keeps trying make pvp a main draw and focus, when really only a fraction of the mmo players want pvp, and even much less for the game to be built around it.

Anytime systems are designed with pvp and factions that are required to make it work, the end up failing quick because everyone just jumps to the winning side or quits playing altogether.

Even the almighty WoW was like this, as they had like 200 pve servers, and like 5% of that in pvp servers, and every pvp server ended up being 99% / 1% faction imbalance.
I swear PVP based MMOs are almost like Communism, in that they keep failing and people keep trying them regardless of the outcome. Other than Shadowbane? or maybe Archeage or possibly original UO (debatable), has anyone done open world PVP successfully? I know lots of games had it has a tiny part of the game but what a huge distraction, since so few players engage with it. It's really a shame, I really feel like PC gaming was Peak when the two top genres were MMOs and RTSs, now almost extinct.
 

Cybsled

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PVP focused MMOs are basically the devs hoping players will make content. That's it.

Just look at Dune. Sort of a MMO-lite, but they hoped players would PVP a bunch and it would take pressure off the devs to produce more PVE content
 
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Gravel

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They want PVP to work because it's "content" that doesn't require developers to make it.

The problem is no one actually wants PVP.

Edit: Just barely beaten to it.
 
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Srathor

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People want to win at pvp. But winning every fight is boring, losing every fight is boring. And 99% of the MMO open world pvp fights are so damn warped with risk vrs reward that it doesn't matter. Levels matter, gear matters, positioning and world layout matter, time of the encounter matters, far too many weighted variables to make things even. Or even close to fair. Add in classes, and builds, and enchantments and all the other variables.

Yeah. Clusterfuck. It has not been solved yet. Likely never will.
 

Cybsled

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Rallos Zek was fine because it was a single server that offered PVP to people who wanted to engage with that type of content. PVP specific servers are a great idea

The problem isn't that, it is some devs trying to make mandatory PVP with no opt-out their entire game
 

Kuro

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I loved that Warhammer PVP battleground with all the lava to punt people into. For some reason other folks weren't as enthusiastic.
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Rallos Zek was fine because it was a single server that offered PVP to people who wanted to engage with that type of content. PVP specific servers are a great idea

The problem isn't that, it is some devs trying to make mandatory PVP with no opt-out their entire game
Don't forget they dedicated zero effort to it. It was basically a free for all. They didn't spend a bunch of time trying to balance classes around each other so PVP would be fair.
 

Sylas

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I swear PVP based MMOs are almost like Communism, in that they keep failing and people keep trying them regardless of the outcome. Other than Shadowbane? or maybe Archeage or possibly original UO (debatable), has anyone done open world PVP successfully? I know lots of games had it has a tiny part of the game but what a huge distraction, since so few players engage with it. It's really a shame, I really feel like PC gaming was Peak when the two top genres were MMOs and RTSs, now almost extinct.
Eve Online is the only successful PVP game. All others failed
 
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