Batman: The Killing Joke (2016)

Arbitrary_sl said:

It's a fine variant cover, it just doesn't make much business sense to use it after you'vejustrebooted Barbara into a perky teen college something lol selfies. There she is, right there in her new costume, placed back at her lowest point so we can put over the Joker for the Nth time. They should have went with something that made both characters look strong. The story of Barbara Gordon isn't that the Joker tortured and paralyzed her, it's that she went through everything he could dish out and still came out the other end a hero. It's her brand new comic, find a way to make her look like a hero.

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That's the thing though; heroes are still heroes even when something torments them. The Killing Joke was pretty brutal - I think it still works if you show how fucked up it made her, and the fact that she'll obviously win in the end.

I know that and you know that but the redesign of that character is very clearly trying to drag in younger (and maybe even female) readers who don't really have any idea what is going on. It's not like on the outer cover there's a picture of Batgirl triumphing. It's just this one dark image referencing something from a long time ago. Hell, they were already pissing off long term fans of her as Oracle.

I just think they really, really mishandled the relaunch of that character is what I'm saying.

That cover clearly shows batgirl as the victim. I think the idea was to show that being a victim and being a hero aren't mutually exclusive.

Arbitrary_sl said:

I know that and you know that but the redesign of that character is very clearly trying to drag in younger (and maybe even female) readers who don't really have any idea what is going on. It's not like on the outer cover there's a picture of Batgirl triumphing. It's just this one dark image referencing something from a long time ago. Hell, they were already pissing off long term fans of her as Oracle.

I just think they really, really mishandled the relaunch of that character is what I'm saying.

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I could see that side of it. It's harder to be unbiased though, since I knew what it was referencing and really dug it. It was just a shame that people brought it out as this big sexist thing, when it fact, it was just a throw back to an older comic. (Albeit one that perhaps the fanbase of the current run might not have been aware of.)

LadyVex_sl said:

I could see that side of it. It's harder to be unbiased though, since I knew what it was referencing and really dug it. It was just a shame that people brought it out as this big sexist thing, when it fact, it was just a throw back to an older comic. (Albeit one that perhaps the fanbase of the current run might not have been aware of.)

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Over the last five years there has been a ton of revisionist history in regards to Killing Joke. As the comic industry goes farther and farther left the whole sexual assault thing makes the comic "gross".

valishar_sl said:

Here Grant Morrison can explain it for you.

It might not be true but it is an interpretation.

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God Kevin Smith is intolerable to listen to sometimes. However, I do get what Morrison is saying, it just does not help the fact that mainstream continuity continued to reference killing joke even after the nu52. Usually Morrison likes to incorporate EVERYTHING happened EVER in the comic books. Robin Dies at Dawn happened, Zu En ARh batman happened. Hell Robin Dies at Dawn was half of his Batman run. Soooo..basically he needs to come back and write the killing joke/ mainstream bridge.

I just want the dude to write more batman.

yeah. I dont know wth happened to Smith. I can't stand listening to him anymore either.

Caliane_sl said:

yeah. I dont know wth happened to Smith. I can't stand listening to him anymore either.

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There's a reason why Bob is fucking Silent. Guy has always been fucking irritating, it's just that Hipsters tended to agree with him for a few years.

He stopped being cool when he got kicked off a flight for being too fat and went on to cry about all over the internet. Even if you don't know it that's the exact moment you stopped liking him.

I will say the shit he does for his addict friend (guy who played Jay) is above and beyond though, so while I ignore him for the most part, I'm really not going to talk shit. It's worth reading about.

Jait_sl said:

There's a reason why Bob is fucking Silent. Guy has always been fucking irritating, it's just that Hipsters tended to agree with him for a few years.

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An Evening with Kevin Smith series is actually pretty good. It's just the droning podcast pot addled stuff that gets to me.

Arbitrary_sl said:

He stopped being cool when he got kicked off a flight for being too fat and went on to cry about all over the internet. Even if you don't know it that's the exact moment you stopped liking him.

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It was before that we he started crying like a little bitch when Jersey Girl got panned.

Its obviously sexual assault stripping someone by force and taking pictures of them and by current law interpretations and SJW viewpoints its def rape. And its quite a interesting story in the fact that its trying to crystalize the "moral" of Batman... back in the day when the Joker mostly killed his henchmen and crap and the batman TV series with wham! pop! whack! he never really killed anyone and the entire "why doesn't batman just kill him already! he always comes back and causes more problems!" was ethical and debatable... but imo its been taken to far, batman watches the joker kill a troop of boy scouts, poisons and entire chunk of people etc. etc. and its "nope! off or jail again! because if I kill him, I am a bad guy" or "then he wins" its just stupid- I like to think the killing joke is the end, snap done, it shouldn't have even gotten that far.

Writers have done the "Joker's come back but THIS time it's different!" story a bunch of times. From the Killing Joke to Grant Morrison's Thin White Duke of Death to the Joker that cut his face off to this latest memetic virus-through-history plague factory that infected all of Gotham with the Rage virus from 28 days later the character is now so insane and his body counts are so high that there's just no reason anymore that someone somewhere hasn't pitched him into the sun.

xadion_sl said:

Its obviously sexual assault stripping someone by force and taking pictures of them and by current law interpretations and SJW viewpoints its def rape. And its quite a interesting story in the fact that its trying to crystalize the "moral" of Batman... back in the day when the Joker mostly killed his henchmen and crap and the batman TV series with wham! pop! whack! he never really killed anyone and the entire "why doesn't batman just kill him already! he always comes back and causes more problems!" was ethical and debatable... but imo its been taken to far, batman watches the joker kill a troop of boy scouts, poisons and entire chunk of people etc. etc. and its "nope! off or jail again! because if I kill him, I am a bad guy" or "then he wins" its just stupid- I like to think the killing joke is the end, snap done, it shouldn't have even gotten that far.

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It breaks the character, and it has never been done with any particular nuance. The one thing I do agree with with all the social crybabying people have done against the Killing Joke the last half decade, is the fact that you cannot walk this back on the Joker. This and him killing Jason Todd put him beyond the point of goofball crimes, making that continuity causes all kinds of issues with Batman's code, they threw the point of no return away during this era. As much as I loved the movie "Under the Red Hood" the stuff Batman says about it "being too easy and not being able to come back" if/when he killed the Joker is ridiculous and breaks Batman. Judd Winwick meant well when he tried to "fix" that by bringing it up, but it was not nuanced enough to do anything but point out that Batman is a comic book character. Out of all the bullshit they have wiped away in multiple crisis, and a complete line reboot. They have not changed the fact that the Joker, on top of being a mass murderer, has killed his Son, Shot/Sexually assaulted( if not raped) his metaphorical daughter, and tried to drive his Best Friend insane. And he recently cut off his Father Figures hand.


It breaks the "realism" of the setting he hasn't killed him yet.

Harley is at that point now too.

She is in the same deal. Time and time again, "its too easy to kill you". Making her character still totally revolve around him, while at the same time they are trying to make her own character, and anti-hero, and solo.

Joker causing his own death, by pushing Harley too far, solves every problem.

batman not killing works fine when we're talking about joker mostly just doing harassing type crimes. not even just joker but he stands out. but when you go from, joker filled the macy's day parade balloons with joker toxin! they're set to pop at 10am exactly and then everyone WILL LAUGH THEMSELVES TO DEATH!! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN!!! to joker just finished cutting his own face off and chopping alfred's hand of and burying an axe in gordon's chest... it's just too visceral a crime to let go. in order to test batman, his enemies have to keep one-upping themselves. that's why we just don't see batman taking down street thugs on any kind of regular basis. there's no suspense in that. but scarecrow unleashing fear gas on the entire city so everyone tears each other apart... well, now that's a challenge! but once batman solves that problem scarecrow needs to do something more serious.

there comes a point where batman forces himself into irrelevancy.

This made me watch some youtube stuff, one of which is all the animated and video game joker deaths... most are accidental or caused by his own plan being foiled - but the animated dark Knight rises, the joker just busts into an amusement park kills a police guy that for whatever reason didn't just put a bullet into the joker...then takes his gun and goes into the tunnel of love and proceeds to shoot everyone he comes across. Batman follows his wake and sees all these innocent people laying dead- catches the joker and says something to extent of "I am guilty of those you murdered because I have let you live." Perfect, great- awesome people will get that, understand and agree... they fight batman "snaps" jokers neck and 2 people down the hall see him and oh nos run away! Then they ruin it by having the joker still be alive and give his "hehe I won because you killed me! Now they will kill you! Oh your bad, I broke you haha" ... is Gotham filled with libtards who love just sending these mega villans to jail yet would Lynch batman? Sheesh.

That happens in the comics not just the animated movie based on it.

Always thought this comic was surprisingly accurate for being as silly as it is -