Bioshock Infinite

Azziane_sl · Apr 7, 2013

Kuriin_sl said:
She doesn't drown the Booker who accepts baptism. She drowns Booker before he even says "No, no, I don't want to do this." Meaning, it's not 'Comstock' who drowns. It is Booker DeWitt.

But even if Dewitt drowns, he just dies in that one world. In that one world there is no Dewitt who makes the choice to be reborn so no Comstock, no Dewitt to give up the kid either. But in the "million million" other worlds there is still millions of Dewitt working their way up to that choice and making that choice. If killing Comstock only kills him in that world how does killing DeWitt (pre or post rebirth) change things in every alternate world?

The contant & variables thing is the whole of the explanation? If you change a constant, or stop it from happening, that's that in every world?

Dandai · Apr 7, 2013

Azziane_sl said:
But even if Dewitt drowns, he just dies in that one world. In that one world there is no Dewitt who makes the choice to be reborn so no Comstock, no Dewitt to give up the kid either. But in the "million million" other worlds there is still millions of Dewitt working their way up to that choice and making that choice. If killing Comstock only kills him in that world how does killing DeWitt (pre or post rebirth) change things in every alternate world?

The contant & variables thing is the whole of the explanation? If you change a constant, or stop it from happening, that's that in every world?

Remember how there were millions of millions of lighthouses? All those lighthouses represented any time there was at least a 50/50 choice to be made. Bookeralwaysgoes to the baptism, so that point in time has a lighthouse that then creates two more lighthouses (he receives the baptism or refuses it). Elizabeth took Booker to the point in time leading up to the baptism. When Booker is drowned there the lighthouses that were created by that choice (receiving or refusing the baptism) disappear, as well as all subsequent lighthouses. The reason we see it through the same Booker's eyes that we've been playing the whole time is a storytelling method and shouldn't necessarily be seen as the Booker who has already made those choices, etc. What you're seeing in the final scene is Elizabeth damming the River of Time at that juncture so that Booker will never be Comstock and he will never give her up to become Elizabeth instead of Anna.

Make sense?

Edit: The reason this was the only way to resolve the story is because that is the point at which Comstock is "born." Any other solution would've allowed Comstock to exist in millions of other worlds in which Booker still received the baptism and thus became Comstock.

Syringed_sl · Apr 7, 2013

Azziane_sl said:
But even if Dewitt drowns, he just dies in that one world. In that one world there is no Dewitt who makes the choice to be reborn so no Comstock, no Dewitt to give up the kid either. But in the "million million" other worlds there is still millions of Dewitt working their way up to that choice and making that choice. If killing Comstock only kills him in that world how does killing DeWitt (pre or post rebirth) change things in every alternate world?

The contant & variables thing is the whole of the explanation? If you change a constant, or stop it from happening, that's that in every world?

Elizabeth, after becoming 'siphon free', is basically a Time Lord at that point. She can see every infinite window of every outcome with every constant and variable. She claimed prior to being locked up in the tower, she could create her own realities. She simply created a reality where drowning Booker would affect the other infinite universes. Removing Comstock completely out of the equation so there is no deal for the girl ever made. This also erases Elizabeth from existence, leaving only the opportunity for Booker to raise her without the variable of becoming Comstock or the constant of making a deal with Comstock to settle his gambling debts.

TheOkapi · Apr 7, 2013

Hatorade_sl said:
A look into how daisey and fink became who they are would be welcome for first dlc, I can see those red tears being used somehow.

I forget what other games theses guys made besides bioshock, but a red tear into one of there other games would be fantastic.

Ah, so, that leads nicely into my pet theory

My brain got hung up on Colombia attacking New York in 1984. Why? Why did this, seemly reformed/repentant Old Lady Elizabeth attack NY, then summon DeWitt to make things right, right at this moment? Did she have have a change of heart on the trip there? Or is attacking New York PART of her making amends?

Something I noticed in the game, and I'm sure plenty of others have too, is the anachronistic music in "1912" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLr31ycZVtUcovers most of it) I think Fink and his brother Albert were both young and living in New York in 1984. The music in game is all stuff that the two brothers listened to in the era they grew up in/loved/whatever and brought with them, back to the past. Colombia/OldLadyElizabeth is trying to prevent Fink from using a time-tear thing, which he plans to use to go back, re-brand plasmoids from the fallen Rapture as Vigors, and use that money base to...I dunno, be an evil dick or whatever. I get the feeling the real key to Fink's plan is that Shock Jockey actually replaces electricity, with him being the only supplier. We got a peek at the successful version of his plan when Elizabeth and DeWitt go to the Colombia ruled by Fink. I think Songbird may be Fink's brother Albert, damaged severely in the attacks in 1984 from Colombia as run by OLE. Perhaps his guardianship of Elizabeth was multipurposed. By being in control of the books she read (she said Songbird was the one that brought all of them there), he could perhaps mold her into a person that would never attack New York. Failing that, if she never leaves the tower and/or never meets DeWitt, then the same goal is achieved, and hopefully Songbird/Albert isn't hurt and lives a normal life.

So the DLC (im guessing two installments) would be focusing on the different two other worlds we saw in the game. One where Fink rules, and perhaps you're DeWitt, or maybe you're the brother, I dunno. The other world would be Daisy's/Vox run world. The only curious point about that one is; how did Comstock exist in that world if DeWitt martyred himself to stop him? No clue.

Then again, maybe I think too much.

TrollfaceDeux · Apr 7, 2013

TheOkapi_sl said:
Ah, so, that leads nicely into my pet theory

My brain got hung up on Colombia attacking New York in 1984. Why? Why did this, seemly reformed/repentant Old Lady Elizabeth attack NY, then summon DeWitt to make things right, right at this moment? Did she have have a change of heart on the trip there? Or is attacking New York PART of her making amends?

Something I noticed in the game, and I'm sure plenty of others have too, is the anachronistic music in "1912" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLr31ycZVtUcovers most of it) I think Fink and his brother Albert were both young and living in New York in 1984. The music in game is all stuff that the two brothers listened to in the era they grew up in/loved/whatever and brought with them, back to the past. Colombia/OldLadyElizabeth is trying to prevent Fink from using a time-tear thing, which he plans to use to go back, re-brand plasmoids from the fallen Rapture as Vigors, and use that money base to...I dunno, be an evil dick or whatever. I get the feeling the real key to Fink's plan is that Shock Jockey actually replaces electricity, with him being the only supplier. We got a peek at the successful version of his plan when Elizabeth and DeWitt go to the Colombia ruled by Fink. I think Songbird may be Fink's brother Albert, damaged severely in the attacks in 1984 from Colombia as run by OLE. Perhaps his guardianship of Elizabeth was multipurposed. By being in control of the books she read (she said Songbird was the one that brought all of them there), he could perhaps mold her into a person that would never attack New York. Failing that, if she never leaves the tower and/or never meets DeWitt, then the same goal is achieved, and hopefully Songbird/Albert isn't hurt and lives a normal life.

So the DLC (im guessing two installments) would be focusing on the different two other worlds we saw in the game. One where Fink rules, and perhaps you're DeWitt, or maybe you're the brother, I dunno. The other world would be Daisy's/Vox run world. The only curious point about that one is; how did Comstock exist in that world if DeWitt martyred himself to stop him? No clue.

Then again, maybe I think too much.

one part I am confused about Old Elizabeth part was...what happened to the Booker from that universe? Did he get trapped in a "limbo" or some shit as he was crossing the bridge? Or did he get fucked by the Songbird (i.e. Elizabeth, "Songbird is always there to stop you...")? Because he fucking disappeared for a long time...only to be brought back by Old Elizabeth...Some theorizes that Old Elizabeth's booker actually got killed or some shit and Old Elizabeth opened a tear to another world to get another Booker back.

Amzin · Apr 7, 2013

TheOkapi_sl said:
Ah, so, that leads nicely into my pet theory

My brain got hung up on Colombia attacking New York in 1984. Why? Why did this, seemly reformed/repentant Old Lady Elizabeth attack NY, then summon DeWitt to make things right, right at this moment? Did she have have a change of heart on the trip there? Or is attacking New York PART of her making amends?

Something I noticed in the game, and I'm sure plenty of others have too, is the anachronistic music in "1912" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLr31ycZVtUcovers most of it) I think Fink and his brother Albert were both young and living in New York in 1984. The music in game is all stuff that the two brothers listened to in the era they grew up in/loved/whatever and brought with them, back to the past. Colombia/OldLadyElizabeth is trying to prevent Fink from using a time-tear thing, which he plans to use to go back, re-brand plasmoids from the fallen Rapture as Vigors, and use that money base to...I dunno, be an evil dick or whatever. I get the feeling the real key to Fink's plan is that Shock Jockey actually replaces electricity, with him being the only supplier. We got a peek at the successful version of his plan when Elizabeth and DeWitt go to the Colombia ruled by Fink. I think Songbird may be Fink's brother Albert, damaged severely in the attacks in 1984 from Colombia as run by OLE. Perhaps his guardianship of Elizabeth was multipurposed. By being in control of the books she read (she said Songbird was the one that brought all of them there), he could perhaps mold her into a person that would never attack New York. Failing that, if she never leaves the tower and/or never meets DeWitt, then the same goal is achieved, and hopefully Songbird/Albert isn't hurt and lives a normal life.

So the DLC (im guessing two installments) would be focusing on the different two other worlds we saw in the game. One where Fink rules, and perhaps you're DeWitt, or maybe you're the brother, I dunno. The other world would be Daisy's/Vox run world. The only curious point about that one is; how did Comstock exist in that world if DeWitt martyred himself to stop him? No clue.

Then again, maybe I think too much.

Elizabeth in old-Elizabeth universe is eventually indoctrinated by Comstock & his goons after a long time of Booker not rescuing her. She believes in what Comstock preached for a long while, and begins to doubt herself once she gets old. But at that point, there's not anything she can do to stop the masses of her followers - she's old, worn out, has little power left, and suddenly preaching not-death-to-the-ground-dwellers wouldn't exactly convince everybody.

And based on the Voxaphones, there's no reason to believe that Fink & his brother are from the future. The red tears that play future-music are where Fink's brother gets his music ideas from (under the guise of saying it's some musician or other) and looking into tears with Comstock is where he got the tech for Vigors and the Handymen.

The Songbird is a big mystery still I think though, I think I read that there's some evidence that Comstock used very young Elizabeth powers to create it somehow, but I didn't read up more on it.

Edit, re: Trollface

Elizabeth at one point says there's no universe where Songbird doesn't stop Booker - so an Elizabeth that got past that point and figured out how to stop the Songbird had to pull Booker to her and then send him back. This happened to be old Elizabeth in that universe. It's impossible to know if that was the same Elizabeth that you had been with so far or not, since the tears cross both time and space, it could be either.

TrollfaceDeux · Apr 7, 2013

Amzin_sl said:
Elizabeth at one point says there's no universe where Songbird doesn't stop Booker - so an Elizabeth that got past that point and figured out how to stop the Songbird had to pull Booker to her and then send him back. This happened to be old Elizabeth in that universe. It's impossible to know if that was the same Elizabeth that you had been with so far or not, since the tears cross both time and space, it could be either.

yeah, fuck. that sounds about right. multiverse be crazy yo.

Cantatus · Apr 7, 2013

TheOkapi_sl said:
Ah, so, that leads nicely into my pet theory

Something I noticed in the game, and I'm sure plenty of others have too, is the anachronistic music in "1912" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLr31ycZVtUcovers most of it) I think Fink and his brother Albert were both young and living in New York in 1984. The music in game is all stuff that the two brothers listened to in the era they grew up in/loved/whatever and brought with them, back to the past. Colombia/OldLadyElizabeth is trying to prevent Fink from using a time-tear thing, which he plans to use to go back, re-brand plasmoids from the fallen Rapture as Vigors, and use that money base to...I dunno, be an evil dick or whatever. I get the feeling the real key to Fink's plan is that Shock Jockey actually replaces electricity, with him being the only supplier. We got a peek at the successful version of his plan when Elizabeth and DeWitt go to the Colombia ruled by Fink. I think Songbird may be Fink's brother Albert, damaged severely in the attacks in 1984 from Colombia as run by OLE. Perhaps his guardianship of Elizabeth was multipurposed. By being in control of the books she read (she said Songbird was the one that brought all of them there), he could perhaps mold her into a person that would never attack New York. Failing that, if she never leaves the tower and/or never meets DeWitt, then the same goal is achieved, and hopefully Songbird/Albert isn't hurt and lives a normal life.

Then again, maybe I think too much.

It's clearly stated on at least one voxophone that Albert is looking into other rifts to get the anachronistic music. There are actually a few places where Booker can stumble upon these rifts and hear the music. For example, there's a rift in the corner of Finkton where I believe you hearFortunate Son. Albert Fink has one of these rifts in his studio in Emporia.

You can actually find the studio near the graveyard where you first encounter Lady Comstock's ghost. The building is heavily damaged due to being raided by the Vox Populi and has to be entered by jumping into a hole in the back wall. Inside you find the rift Albert uses (which playsGirls Just Want to Have Funwhen you get near), and next to it, you find Albert's corpse.

Kuriin · Apr 7, 2013

TheOkapi_sl said:
Ah, so, that leads nicely into my pet theory

My brain got hung up on Colombia attacking New York in 1984. Why? Why did this, seemly reformed/repentant Old Lady Elizabeth attack NY, then summon DeWitt to make things right, right at this moment? Did she have have a change of heart on the trip there? Or is attacking New York PART of her making amends?.

[

Do you remember...

When Booker DeWitt tells Elizabeth about his dream of New York in flames? Elizabeth probably remembers this and uses up all her strength to summon Booker.

Booker, in every single universe, was stopped some sort by Songbird.

Vaclav · Apr 7, 2013

Fink built Songbird theres a Voxophone that says it somewhat located RIGHT underneath a Vetruvian Man of Songbird which as a complete picture says he built it.

Dandai · Apr 8, 2013

Vaclav_sl said:
Fink built Songbird theres a Voxophone that says it somewhat located RIGHT underneath a Vetruvian Man of Songbird which as a complete picture says he built it.

This is in the room immediately prior to the confrontation with Fitzroy when she kills Fink. Also, there's like 1500 silver eagles lying around.

TrollfaceDeux · Apr 8, 2013

wtf is happening here

Zaphid · Apr 8, 2013

That's the game fucking with your brain.

Joeboo · Apr 8, 2013

Has anyone figured out if there is any difference in the game between choosing the bird, or the cage emblem necklace for Elizabeth?

Sean_sl · Apr 8, 2013

joeboo_sl said:
Has anyone figured out if there is any difference in the game between choosing the bird, or the cage emblem necklace for Elizabeth?

There's a couple changes, supposedly. I think there's some minor dialogue differences and it changes Elizabeth's necklace. The other change is that supposedly instead of Elizabeth giving you coins when you choose the bird she gives you lockpicks when you choose the cage.

Syringed_sl · Apr 8, 2013

Sean_sl said:
There's a couple changes, supposedly. I think there's some minor dialogue differences and it changes Elizabeth's necklace. The other change is that supposedly instead of Elizabeth giving you coins when you choose the bird she gives you lockpicks when you choose the cage.

Never knew any of this. I really thought it was entirely cosmetic for Elizabeth's necklace. I hope someone eventually puts a video together showing what effects, no matter how subtle, the choices have in Infinite. I just learned today that demanding your tickets for the airship instead of drawing first at Battleship Bay gets Booker's hand stabbed and Elizabeth bandages his hand with a piece of cloth that stays on him for the rest of the game.

TheOkapi · Apr 8, 2013

Trollface_sl said:
wtf is happening here

Personally, it was that which let me figure out the two were

the same person, just different genders/timelines/quantum versions.

I'm sure others picked it up sooner, but that switch lit the bulb for me

edit: oh, and I clearly missed some voxophones that had info that blows my dumb theory out of the water. But I still think the DLC should focus on the other things mentioned.

ubiquitrips · Apr 8, 2013

Sean_sl said:
There's a couple changes, supposedly. I think there's some minor dialogue differences and it changes Elizabeth's necklace. The other change is that supposedly instead of Elizabeth giving you coins when you choose the bird she gives you lockpicks when you choose the cage.

I chose the cage on my second play through. Definitely still gives coins in maps and points out lock picks like usual. I haven't really noticed much different not that I remember all the dialog either.

Kuriin · Apr 8, 2013

I've read the necklace is purely cosmetic. She will, as Ubiquitrips mentioned, point out lockpicks and give you coins.

Northerner · Apr 8, 2013

Yeah, went cage for my playthrough and never had her lob lockpicks at me. She'll point them out if you miss them but it sounds like that's standard.

Bioshock Infinite

shitlord

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shitlord

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Lord Nagafen Raider

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<WoW Guild Officer>

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer

Trakanon Raider

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shitlord

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