Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...
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AladainAF
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You're right, it has nothing to do with rape. It has to do with proof that something occurred (which could include rape). So let's do it this way, shall we?
1. Guy meets girl at bar.
2. Guy dates girl several times.
3. Girl invited guy to house to watch movies and "have fun".
4. During movie, girl goes to bathroom and comes out wearing nothing but panties.
5. Guy and girl have sex, but condom breaks in the middle of sex without either being aware and he shoots his load inside her.
6. Later that night girl runs to police saying she was raped.
7. Rape kit performed, semen comes back as the guys.
8. Guy tells police the condom broke during consensual sex, and shows police a trashcan in the bathroom where he threw it away.
9. Guy tells police story, shows police text messages, including the invite to watch movies.
What do the police do? On your planet, is this rape? If so, when did the actual rape occur?
So in your bizarro world, every rape that is not reported immediately was actually consentual sex?Mist_sl said:
Mist
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This is ridiculous. Once you've consented to penetration of a given hole in a given instance, you're equally responsible for whatever happens. You could never prosecute that guy, he has all the evidence in his favor.
And on the reporting thing, I do not think that you should be able to retroactively report rapes after a reasonably period of time unless you have really good evidence that you were too emotionally/mentally incapacitated to report the crime.
Mist
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Mist
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AladainAF
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Where's the proof she consented? Where's the proof she was not coerced into it?
At first you said "Choosing to enter the establishmentrather than reporting immediatelyeffectively means you consented in this example." Now you say "I do not think that you should be able to retroactively report rapesafter a reasonably period of time"Mist_sl said:
I'm so confused now.
Lithose
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This I actually tend to agree with you on. Rape is like DV--people almost don't recognize it anymore because the media only talks about sensational stories where one side is clearly brutal and mean, while the other side is perfect and helpless. That's why the UVA was a "slam dunk" rape story. The reality? Most rapes look nothing like that. Most rapes are caught in a very gray area where there was some consensual contact first, maybe even minor sexual contact, before someone said "no" or someone (In this case) began to resist in a non-verbal manner, such as crying. (Of course, there could be extenuating circumstances; like role playing, or some acknowledgment that both parties enjoy rougher sex but that requires some consent before hand-- but this is why proving rape is so so difficult.)
Just like most DV is not some innocent woman vs a giant, drunk hairy asshole in a wife beater who gives her a black eye because his steak was tough. Most of the times it's two somewhat violent people stuck in the same home, and they antagonize and push each other, until it gets overtly violent and then usually the man injures the woman.
A huge portion of the distorted view of things in this country is due to media sensationalism.
Mist
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She has no proof of anything and he has proof in his defense. It's clearly not rape to any rational person, at least by our society's standards of rape.
Well that's because you're being intentionally stubborn.
For something astrivialas <20 dollars at an amusement park, a 'reasonable period of time' isimmediately.(Also, while his money was taken against his wishes, he was not forced into the establishment under any sort of duress. These two points are why the amusement park example is a terrible rape analogy.)
For asevere, life altering trauma such as rape, some reasonable amount of time needs to be factored in for the victim to regain the mental state required to make a legally weighty accusation and detailed report. That reasonable period of time is probably 48-72 hours in most circumstances. Mattress Girl reporting a rape a month later is out of luck unless she can prove that she was in a constant state of acute stress disorder during that entire month.
Gavinmad
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I'd think the large amount of evidence proving they had a consensual sexual relationship even after the supposed rape is the real reason she's out of luck.
Lithose
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Btw, from earlier...just catching up.
Right now, society is set up to accommodate and help women who claim they are raped. However, our legal system is set up to scrutinize that claim and see if they can produce repercussionsif it's true. That scrutiny can end up feeling uncomfortable for the victim; but it's needed if we want to illustrate the crime to a group of peers. The difficulty is, sometimes this crime becomes very difficult to illustrate. But prejudice against rape accusations? No. As others have said, I don't think you have a lot of experience around crime. Major crimes will turn your life inside out as the state combs through your life to see what happened. Having an objective third party source does this. But if we have a video of every encounter? That would sure make it easier.
Your view is biased (As you admitted). Police have specially trained sexual assault units. Hospitals have staff trained in sexual assault. We have anonymous and non-anon sexual hotlines and advocacy groups. Society is brimming with methods to support women who even claim rape, even if it can't be proven. That is not disdain and prejudice. You're confusing disdain with the claim of rape, for actual scrutiny over the facts before you condemn someone. You're confusing not simply castrating a male the moment an accusation happens with prejudice against women. It's hyperbolic and I think deep down you know that, you're just very close to this issue.
Right now, society is set up to accommodate and help women who claim they are raped. However, our legal system is set up to scrutinize that claim and see if they can produce repercussionsif it's true. That scrutiny can end up feeling uncomfortable for the victim; but it's needed if we want to illustrate the crime to a group of peers. The difficulty is, sometimes this crime becomes very difficult to illustrate. But prejudice against rape accusations? No. As others have said, I don't think you have a lot of experience around crime. Major crimes will turn your life inside out as the state combs through your life to see what happened. Having an objective third party source does this. But if we have a video of every encounter? That would sure make it easier.
No, it's not, because everyone here--I'm POSITIVE, everyone here agrees it's still rape. It's just not legally rape. Like, we all agree OJ Simpson is a murderer Mist; but none of us would lower the bar of proof the state needs just to nail future O.J.'s but yeah, he's a murderer. I don't think ALL those women are liars, not in the least. I think SOME might be confused or lying--but I also KNOW there is a mess of women in there who have been hurt but we'll never prove it. (The issue is, separating those groups--we don't have magical mirrors to go watch the sex in question and instantly separate them)
Because the legal and political choices affect men. Both sexes are subject to the power of scrutiny from the government and the public. It seems fair that said scrutiny would be objective. Crime and punishment shouldn't focus solely on the victims wants--we'd have a pretty horrifying legal system, I think, if that happened. (This isn't abortion, this argument is silly.)
Lithose
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Right? I think thisis the major reason she's out of luck. If you were raped, as traumatizing and confusing as that is? Don't text the person a week later with "miss u! Luv u! Want you inside me again!" I mean, preferably as Cad said, struggle a little so there are marks, but I can understand being too scared for that....but asking you not to profess your fucking love seems like s simple thing.
Mist
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I thought your other points were valid even if I disagreed with them, until I got to this one. Our legal and political system iswaytoo biased in favor of men's views about the sovereignty of women's bodies. It's very very hard to argue otherwise.
Mist
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"Struggling to make him rough you up a bit" is absolutely terrible, terrible advice.
That would be like telling a black guy to let the cop shoot you once or twice to prove police brutality.
Much like how cops generally don't stop shooting until you are dead, guys generally either stop immediately after the first hit once they realize what they just did, or don't stop hitting you until you are ready for the hospital or cemetery.
That would be like telling a black guy to let the cop shoot you once or twice to prove police brutality.
Much like how cops generally don't stop shooting until you are dead, guys generally either stop immediately after the first hit once they realize what they just did, or don't stop hitting you until you are ready for the hospital or cemetery.
AladainAF
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The problem is, as ridiculous as the example is, many people still believe it to be true, and use it as talking points.Even in the Obama administration. So yeah. Let's not devolve into it. But you need to understand how much lingers around, even after something is completely proven false. Like UVA - even after the Rolling Stone fallout, all the restrictions imposed afterward as a result to that story are still there. All the frats were still punished over something that was a complete hoax. I bring this up becausethis is what you want to happen. You want false accusations to still result in change in society, to be more restrictive, and punishing to people whodid nothing wrong. I say you want this because you want punishmentwithout proof.
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Lithose
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Well, this is a yes and no for me. Like the whole laws about birth control? Yeah, probably. But there are plenty of laws which are biased very much in favor of women, too. I think overall it's a case by case basis, depending. But that doesn't refute the main thrust of the argument. Not just victims should make laws--because punishment affects everyone. Except asexual people, really, in this case. But laws affect everyone--in this case, even if you make the argument that women cede their sovereignty for sex (Which I think only counts for predatory sex) then I'm still not sure why normal males should cede their legal sovereignty to account for them. When sex for them has both parties retain sovereignty.
Mist
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Never did I say any of those things.
I said I want an atmosphere that is more amenable for real victims to make reports.