Camelot Unchained MMO

Pyksel

Pyksel

Rasterizing . . .
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Taking risks...
Foundational Principle #1 ? Be willing to take risks, even if fortune doesn?t always favor the bold
Being safe is for tourists and for most casual games. This is the wrong game, wrong genre, wrong developer and wrong time to be safe. We will take chances with lots of aspects of this game. We are not afraid to take a stance on what we believe will make a great game even if it means angering (and losing) some potential customers. To quote one of my favorite movies, ?This is a revolution dammit! We are going to have to offend somebody.?

To say this game?s design will be fraught with risks is an understatement. I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like ?sandbox? lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors. I could also go out and talk about how this game ?Will revolutionize PvE!? and attract another group of players and investors (that whole mass market thing) but yet I choose to make an RvR-focused game that even if successful has no chance of threatening Dark Age of Camelot?s peak subs (250k), let alone something much larger like EQ1. What I want to do is take chances with this game that most, if not all, publishers wouldn?t want to take with it and that?s exactly what we are going to do.

You may be thinking, ?that sounds good but WTF does it really mean to me?? It means that we are designing this game from the ground up by tossing out all of the MMORPG tropes that have involved since the first MUD crawled up out of the ether and blinked across a screen. I don?t really care if MMORPGs have been evolving in a certain direction whether over the last five years or fifteen years. All I and the team care about is what will make this game great and that will mean taking chances with the game?s design and again, be willing to piss some people off. And we are ready, willing and able to do that. We won?t include features just to gain a slightly larger market share. I won?t put (or allow anything to be put into the design by others) things that are there simply to gain more users at both the expense of other players and that are in conflict with the FPs. However, I may also put in some features that some people might not consider fun (like true day/night cycle, slower and different leveling systems, extremely limited fast travel, no PvE leveling/gear grind) because I believe that will make this a better game for our niche. It also means a willingness to take some chances with new design ideas as I?ve done in the past, even if it blows up in our face. Both Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online contained lots of risky game design decisions. Some worked well, some not so well and some flopped big-time but I?ve never been and never will be risk adverse. The game will have some very old school elements but it will also have some new ideas and twists and that means taking chances, big-time. Being totally independent again means I can take these chances the way I did in the past and that feels great.

Over the next few weeks I?ll be talking about some of the risks we?ll be taking. If the Kickstarter funds, during the game?s development I?m sure the Backers and our team will come up with more new and risky ideas for us to experiment with. Sounds like fun to me. If it sounds like fun to you, I hope we will have your support for Kickstarter. If not, I thank you for taking the time to read this and possibly our other developer blog entries as well.

Up next: RvR, it?s just not for endgame anymore!
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
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pyksel_sl said:
Taking risks...
Foundational Principle #1 ? Be willing to take risks, even if fortune doesn?t always favor the bold
Being safe is for tourists and for most casual games. This is the wrong game, wrong genre, wrong developer and wrong time to be safe. We will take chances with lots of aspects of this game. We are not afraid to take a stance on what we believe will make a great game even if it means angering (and losing) some potential customers. To quote one of my favorite movies, ?This is a revolution dammit! We are going to have to offend somebody.?

To say this game?s design will be fraught with risks is an understatement. I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like ?sandbox? lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors. I could also go out and talk about how this game ?Will revolutionize PvE!? and attract another group of players and investors (that whole mass market thing) but yet I choose to make an RvR-focused game that even if successful has no chance of threatening Dark Age of Camelot?s peak subs (250k), let alone something much larger like EQ1. What I want to do is take chances with this game that most, if not all, publishers wouldn?t want to take with it and that?s exactly what we are going to do.

You may be thinking, ?that sounds good but WTF does it really mean to me?? It means that we are designing this game from the ground up by tossing out all of the MMORPG tropes that have involved since the first MUD crawled up out of the ether and blinked across a screen. I don?t really care if MMORPGs have been evolving in a certain direction whether over the last five years or fifteen years. All I and the team care about is what will make this game great and that will mean taking chances with the game?s design and again, be willing to piss some people off. And we are ready, willing and able to do that. We won?t include features just to gain a slightly larger market share. I won?t put (or allow anything to be put into the design by others) things that are there simply to gain more users at both the expense of other players and that are in conflict with the FPs. However, I may also put in some features that some people might not consider fun (like true day/night cycle, slower and different leveling systems, extremely limited fast travel, no PvE leveling/gear grind) because I believe that will make this a better game for our niche. It also means a willingness to take some chances with new design ideas as I?ve done in the past, even if it blows up in our face. Both Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online contained lots of risky game design decisions. Some worked well, some not so well and some flopped big-time but I?ve never been and never will be risk adverse. The game will have some very old school elements but it will also have some new ideas and twists and that means taking chances, big-time. Being totally independent again means I can take these chances the way I did in the past and that feels great.

Over the next few weeks I?ll be talking about some of the risks we?ll be taking. If the Kickstarter funds, during the game?s development I?m sure the Backers and our team will come up with more new and risky ideas for us to experiment with. Sounds like fun to me. If it sounds like fun to you, I hope we will have your support for Kickstarter. If not, I thank you for taking the time to read this and possibly our other developer blog entries as well.

Up next: RvR, it?s just not for endgame anymore!
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What exactly are these giant risks they took with DAOC and WAR? They added siege weapons to RvR and a capture the flag system already seen in thousands of other FPS games before, and melded it with a PvE game trying to reduce camping by making people move around in circles. Really. Risk! (TM)

Public dungeons in WAR? What else was risky about that in the slightest?
 
Y

Young_sl

shitlord
45
0
The biggest problem I have with it is for some reason they think a crafting system will replace PvE content.. even the most hard core of PvPers need to bash in some goblin skulls once and a while to get a new mace for their cleric.
 
K

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
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Utnayan_sl said:
What exactly are these giant risks they took with DAOC and WAR? They added siege weapons to RvR and a capture the flag system already seen in thousands of other FPS games before, and melded it with a PvE game trying to reduce camping by making people move around in circles. Really. Risk! (TM)

Public dungeons in WAR? What else was risky about that in the slightest?
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The class system? I mean they had tons of classes and most of them were pretty unique. Tons of skills and variation with positional attacks. Many of those classes had two viable specs, some more. I don't recall anything even close to it prior to DAOC and nothing really since. The three realms with different classes provided shit tons of drama and was really ballsy. Also made balance a nightmare but it added far more than it detracted.

Pretty much everything in RvR was a first or a first that was really done well. 3 realms, taking keeps, upgrades, guard spam, relics, stealth wars etc.. The metagame of DAOC was amazing. There was the zerg v zerg, fg vs fg and the stealth vs stealth. Best thing about it was they almost never impeded each other.

They added leveling through PVP as well. First iirc.

Realm ranks, spell crafting / siege / PC gear (viable player economy since that was the best stuff you could get), hearld stats, darkness falls etc

Just because some of those feature showed up in some kind of similar way in a FPS its a long way from taking that and implementing it in a way for it to be successful in a MMO.

I mean every game since that has maybe had one or two aspects of DAOC has been a total failure except maybe GW2. While not a failure by an economic stand point its just a half ass shell of what a real WvW game would be with a sub and more than a handful of people working as a skeleton crew.

People give MJ shit here and I know that is in fashion but seriously the fucking guy advanced the genre with every game he released. Even if some of the decisions were fucking stupid I'll take anything right now that advances us past 30 hours /played to max in some half ass WoW clone. I have a lot more faith in this than I do in EQN and its PS2 F2P model they'll be pushing. Archage, maybe if you can tolerate the pitfall of waiting 3 months for Koreas last patch? Elder Scrolls, meh but might pull something off? Defiance LOL?

I'll gladly hop on this wagon as opposed to the others. If it sucks it sucks but until the beta leaks start flowing I'll remain cautiously optimistic.
 
L

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
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I do believe DAoC was the first MMO to use a real combat system. Characters were developed with points/builds which were similar to talent points in a lot of ways now I think about it. Also as you increased points you unlocked combat abilities. Those abilities could then be used in rotations/combo chains. When you think that the alternative to this at the time was auto attack in EQ you can see that DAoC was way ahead of its time. Honestly if the game had been PvE based instead of PvP it would of probably ended EQs run early.

I played the shit out of EQ because at the time I loved raiding and the socializing that went along with it. DAoC always called me back though because as a game it was just far superior. I played EQ the most back then, but I'd say I enjoyed DAoC the most. If my EQ guild had moved over to DAoC I would of never given EQ another thought heh.
 
Tauro

Tauro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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DAoC metagame aka realmpride&flamewars on forums was really great fun! if they can do it again im in
smile.png


smile.png
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

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Kedwyn_sl said:
Words
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Good points. But guess who was mostly responsible for all of what you spoke about?

His name wasn't Mark Jacobs. It was Rob Denton

You can thank Mark for the following:

1) Releasing 60% complete
2) 3 months until Relic RvR was even activated, but artifcially bugged by keep doors (His idea since he saw SOE do it with EQ)
3) Blown funding and wasteful spending which effected 1 and 2 under their "18 month" design schedule pushed by Vivendi.

The guy, is a schmuck.

Rob Denton should detatch from EA and form his own kickstarter. NowthatI would be excited about for a niche title.
 
Y

Young_sl

shitlord
45
0
I can vouch for the premature release.. we begged him on the beta forums not to release yet, the TL's hadn't even signed off on their classes yet and had threads full of bugs. Mark has a bad habit of not listening to people, something he claims to have rectified this time around. Kind of like that abusive boyfriend that promises not to hit his girlfriend ever again..

The one thing they have going for them is all they want is a 50k subscription base, in todays MMO market that shouldn't be so hard to hit.. but whether or not they can maintain it is the question.

I trust Firor over Jacobs, so I will definitely be leaning towards TESO.

HOWEVER, DAoC's housing option was pretty awesome, and the crafting system was and is still relevant, over 10 years later, in the end game content without any major over hauls or need to increase your skill gained. If they can replicate that stuff they might have found their alternative to PvP to keep some different kinds of players involved in the game.
 
K

K13R

Bronze Knight of the Realm
285
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Has there ever been an mmo where beta testers gave it the thumbs up to be released..I have done a few beta's never seen a post that said: Games 100% what the fuck are you waiting for go gold already..
 
Cinge

Cinge

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I think its fun just watching UT's unimaginable hate and angst for certain developers. Like they stole his childhood, killed his puppy and pissed in his cheerios everyday!
 
Dashel

Dashel

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Wow i had a hell of a lot of fun in WAR.

However the game was a disappointment at the end of the day. For a small group running around killing large unorganized zergs it was fantastic. If you wanted to play the "end game" it was pure shit. The classes were fun, I still love he Warrior Priest implementation of melee healer, but yeah the class balance was bad. As fun as it was the WP was one of those classes where you had to admit certain builds were just insanely OP.

Spammable big group heal on a short cast time that also purged 2 debuffs each time if traited. It was stupid and it went on like that for a long time.
 
A

Astral Projection_sl

shitlord
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Despite the bugs and Mythic Seconds I kinda liked Warhammer and if this is DAOC 2 sounds good to me. Empire-WarriorPriest and Midgard-Healer were the only healing classes I actually enjoyed playing in any MMOG ever.
 
C

Crizack_sl

shitlord
43
0
I can't believe this many people even knew Camelot existed.
Here's hoping for something nearly as good as DAoC.


We should bring back the VN and Herald.
Fun times shall be had by all!

Dashel_sl said:
Wow i had a hell of a lot of fun in WAR.

However the game was a disappointment at the end of the day. For a small group running around killing large unorganized zergs it was fantastic. If you wanted to play the "end game" it was pure shit. The classes were fun, I still love he Warrior Priest implementation of melee healer, but yeah the class balance was bad. As fun as it was the WP was one of those classes where you had to admit certain builds were just insanely OP.

Spammable big group heal on a short cast time that also purged 2 debuffs each time if traited. It was stupid and it went on like that for a long time.
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Didnt you guys play Choas or whatever on release?
I thought I fought your squid arm guy (maraudar)?
WAR was alright lvling with the curve but at the end of the game, you pretty much experienced it all.
 
Pyksel

Pyksel

Rasterizing . . .
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Regardless of the bugs that plagued parts of DAOC, for me it remains my most memorable and fun MMO to date. Perhaps it was lack of options and innovation in the market at that time but nothing will replace the nostalgia for me. This is of course different from the nostalgia that EQ provided.

The active combat system despite the window draggers
4am relic raids
Camping the milegate
Camping Darkness Falls
Levelling entirely through the BG's
Climbing keep walls
2 shotting people with runie bolts
AoE mentalist dots
Minute long mezzes
Realm abilities such as Purge and TWF
45+ classes
Smite clerics
The game pre-Shrouded Isles/pre-ToA

As far as WAR was concerned, it was fun for what it was worth at the time but quickly lost it's luster once PvDoor and the T4 crashes became more frequent. The game had serious functional issues at the core that many of us in beta tried to get addressed but quickly found ourselves up against a wall. When people like Testpig were providing amazing feedback and alternatives only to find themselves banned from the beta boards, it wasn't a good sign. I still played the shit out of it for as long as I could but eventually the tedium wore me down and I moved on. I certainly miss the pre-EA Mythic days, so maype this is Mark's way of getting back to the small studio he's used to and has more creative control over it but I agree with UT that without Denton I'm not so sure how far this will go.
 
D

Dunhill

N00b
102
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I really believe that the reason why DAoC was such a hit for so many was that they were mesmerized by the large scale PvP. The melee combat system was pure shit as the only styles you could realistically use was your anytime style or maybe your from behind style, at least before they implemented backup styles. I was one shotting casters from far away on my archer without losing stealth for like six months before they nerfed that. Hib casters killed all classes in less time than it took for their uninterruptableninesecond stun to wear off. How long did it take them to implement stun resists? A year?

I think I still hold the world record for getting the most number of kill shots within a few seconds btw. 38. Through a wall of course. No skill involved whatsoever.

My personal favorite was when they implemented new debuffs on the test server. They made them instant, mana free, no cool down, and had them interrupt all spell casting. It didn't carry over to live, but I always wondered who was behind it. One person? The whole team?

I would love to see large scale PvP done right, but there is no way in hell the team behind DAoC will do it. They only did one thing right and that was realizing many of us love PvP despite of PvP being unpopular in EQ.

As for WAR, I only played the trial version also. Me and my buddies all made that dwarf looking melee character and we all spammed that cleave ability. Unstoppable for 99% of the fights it seemed, heh.
 
mkopec

mkopec

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Dunhill_sl said:
As for WAR, I only played the trial version also. Me and my buddies all made that dwarf looking melee character and we all spammed that cleave ability. Unstoppable for 99% of the fights it seemed, heh.
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Yeah I remember that, also there was some healer on the evil side that was basically invulnerable unless like 5 people focused on him. Definite balance issues in that game as well.
 
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