Cancer: a Philosophical Question

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Sanrith Descartes

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Spoke with an acquaintance recently. Wife was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer last year. Guy has sold all their rental properties, their business and cashed out most of their savings for various treatments and the like. They are now giving her less than 6 months left.

It got me thinking. Obviously we would do anything we could for our wife/husband/child.

But what if the situation is reversed. What if you were diagnosed and triple opinioned with stage 4 bone/colon/pancreas cancer. It's not going to kill you tomorrow, but I think colon cancer is less than 15% chance you make it 5 years and the other two are worse stats. Again we are talking stage 4.

Would you let your spouse cash in everything to buy you a little more time? Burn all your kid's college money, sell the business, the house etc? Would the same love that would drive you to sell everything for your sick loved one be just as strong in you to prevent them from doing it for you?

It's really a fucked up situation.
 
Kithani

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Metastatic Pancreatic Cancer you’re more or less fucked no matter what tbh

I think most insurances (other than straight Medicare) have an annual out of pocket max. I’d recommend getting Medicare + a Medicare supplement plan with an OOP max for these situations.
 
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C

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My mom died of a combination of colon/biliary cancer. Fortunately we had great insurance and the financial drain on the family was not dramatic. However, the price we all (willingly) paid in emotional and physical energy was immense and echoed for years afterwards. Never mind that her last 12 months of life were more or less abject misery.

I by no means judge anyone who choses to fight to the bitter end, but if I get a diagnosis like that I am checking out early, on my own terms, while my quality of life is still good and I can set my own affairs in order in advance. Not only am I not letting my family destroy its financial future to take a long-shot swing at saving me, but I'm going to save them the trauma of a slow death and the chaotic aftermath and instead gift some good final memories.

Same goes for untreatable cognitive decline. Lots of people might disagree with that approach, but that's fine and they can do what they want with their own life.
 
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Lanx

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Captain Suave said:
Same goes for untreatable cognitive decline. Lots of people might disagree with that approach, but that's fine and they can do what they want with their own life.
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yup, when you forget cursive, it's time
82d2cf467dd600420a05a1f4e0aa0c91.png
 
Rangoth

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Not sure if this is fun post or serious but if I knew for a fact I were terminal and in potentially high pain/miserable QoL I would NOT want my family to spend a lot of resources on me at their detriment. It seems very selfish.

I’d also want to go out on my own terms but who knows if I could actually do it when the time comes. I guess it depends how bad it is.

I think the underlying problem is actually hope. No one wants to believe they are done for. New technologies, some dude in China beat it by using river balm, I read online, my moms cousin, etc etc. they all want to think that somehow you’ll overcome. It’s the hope that drives people to do this.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Captain Suave said:
My mom died of a combination of colon/biliary cancer. Fortunately we had great insurance and the financial drain on the family was not dramatic. However, the price we all (willingly) paid in emotional and physical energy was immense and echoed for years afterwards. Never mind that her last 12 months of life were more or less abject misery.

I by no means judge anyone who choses to fight to the bitter end, but if I get a diagnosis like that I am checking out early, on my own terms, while my quality of life is still good and I can set my own affairs in order in advance. Not only am I not letting my family destroy its financial future to take a long-shot swing at saving me, but I'm going to save them the trauma of a slow death and the chaotic aftermath and instead gift some good final memories.

Same goes for untreatable cognitive decline. Lots of people might disagree with that approach, but that's fine and they can do what they want with their own life.
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Yeah my mom passed this year and her last two years had close to zero quality of life. I am of the same mindset as you. If I am ever in that position I will go out on my own terms. Someplace quiet where there won't be a bother to clean up the mess.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Rangoth said:
Not sure if this is fun post or serious but if I knew for a fact I were terminal and in potentially high pain/miserable QoL I would NOT want my family to spend a lot of resources on me at their detriment. It seems very selfish.

I’d also want to go out on my own terms but who knows if I could actually do it when the time comes. I guess it depends how bad it is.

I think the underlying problem is actually hope. No one wants to believe they are done for. New technologies, some dude in China beat it by using river balm, I read online, my moms cousin, etc etc. they all want to think that somehow you’ll overcome. It’s the hope that drives people to do this.
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No it wasn't meant as a fun post. I literally watched this family go from upper middle class to nothing in about a year. It really got me thinking about it. And I wasn't even speaking of the emotional aspect that Suave mentions.

If it was just me, no family in the mix, then yeah I would fight tooth and nail for a cure. And also I'm not 30. Wife and I have built a great life together and the thought of her spending it all to give me a tiny chance of a little more life is really tough to accept.

It's a hard subject to think through.
 
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Furry

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Sanrith Descartes said:
Yeah my mom passed this year and her last two years had close to zero quality of life. I am of the same mindset as you. If I am ever in that position I will go out on my own terms. Someplace quiet where there won't be a bother to clean up the mess.
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What a selfish asshole thing to do. Have the decency to die like a normal person. Cleaning up the mess is part of what makes people whole.
 
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moonarchia

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Sanrith Descartes said:
Yeah my mom passed this year and her last two years had close to zero quality of life. I am of the same mindset as you. If I am ever in that position I will go out on my own terms. Someplace quiet where there won't be a bother to clean up the mess.
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My plan is to just go into the shower, sit down, and cut my jugular if worse comes to worst. All the blood. shit, and piss can just be hosed down the drain.
 
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Araysar

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This one hits close to home. My cat was diagnosed with a tumor in the chest last week. He has a biopsy next month but he's probably a goner. I'm not paying for chemo.
 
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Springbok

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It's not untreatable. I've read (at this point at least) hundreds of compelling case studies, anecdotal experiences, etc of success using Mebendazole or Fenbendazole in tandem with several traditional SOC methods. Often with no SOC assistance. I take it 3 days on 4 days off 222mg every quarter and there are no side effects and no disruption to my otherwise excellent blood work (which I monitor 2x annually). Turmeric/Curcumin (a potent anti-inflammatory), Vitamin E, and no THC CBD oil are also typically used in conjunction with intermittent fasting/fasting to induce Autophagy.

At the very least, it's a cheap, often effective with little/no downside risk option.

Mebendazole Impedes the Proliferation and Migration of Pancreatic Cancer Cells through SK1 Inhibition Dependent Pathway - PMC

Pancreatic ductal adenocarcinoma (PDAC) has one of the highest mortality rates and requires the development of highly efficacious medications that can improve the efficiency of existing treatment methods. In particular, in PDAC, resistance to ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

Johns Hopkins Study: Anti-Parasitic Drug Slows Pancreatic Cancer in Mice

www.hopkinsmedicine.org www.hopkinsmedicine.org


I've personally met Joe Tippens, as he lives a few miles from me in Oklahoma and his story is compelling and worthy of discussion.

As to your original query, I think it would depend on where you are in your life. The younger you are, the more I'd lean into throwing everything at it to extract as much marrow from life as I possibly could, damn the costs. As you get older, and kids, spousal care etc become more paramount I'd probably do everything in my power to mitigate any sort of financial burden, regardless what it means for me.
 
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GuardianX

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Sanrith Descartes said:
Would the same love that would drive you to sell everything for your sick loved one be just as strong in you to prevent them from doing it for you?
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My wife had this discussion, following the most recent diagnosis of a cousin of mine discovering that he has end game cancer (I have no clue about stages or locations) with something like a 2-6 month remaining time given to him.

If something like this happens, I want her to divorce me, I'll get treatment however I can and then I told her to watch the news for my passing.

Going into mountains of debt or using millions of dollars to extend my life months or a year isn't worth it. After watching several relatives die in various states of health and age, I can honestly say it's never easy to die but some choose to do it how they want and, to me, that's impressive.

---

If there is time and treatments that are viable, I dunno thats a hard one..send your family into debt just to live? I dunno, I think my system would be roughly the same but with the goal of segmenting my finances from theirs.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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GuardianX said:
My wife had this discussion, following the most recent diagnosis of a cousin of mine discovering that he has end game cancer (I have no clue about stages or locations) with something like a 2-6 month remaining time given to him.

If something like this happens, I want her to divorce me, I'll get treatment however I can and then I told her to watch the news for my passing.

Going into mountains of debt or using millions of dollars to extend my life months or a year isn't worth it. After watching several relatives die in various states of health and age, I can honestly say it's never easy to die but some choose to do it how they want and, to me, that's impressive.

---

If there is time and treatments that are viable, I dunno thats a hard one..send your family into debt just to live? I dunno, I think my system would be roughly the same but with the goal of segmenting my finances from theirs.
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It's honestly something 99% of folks don't ever think about (myself included until recently) and yet if you don't think about it ahead of time it's a life altering set of decisions being made at one of the most emotional times in our lives.

It's honestly the reason I made this post.
 
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sleevedraw

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Sanrith Descartes said:
It's honestly something 99% of folks don't ever think about (myself included until recently) and yet if you don't think about it ahead of time it's a life altering set of decisions being made at one of the most emotional times in our lives.

It's honestly the reason I made this post.
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One of the great privileges? of working in health care is that you get exposed to this early. I've had a living will and healthcare power of attorney (my cousin, who is a mid-level practitioner) who knows my wishes since my 20s. Those wishes basically being that if I am in an irreversible coma, let me go; if I have Alzheimer's, let me go; if I have metastatic cancer where all chemo is going to do is perhaps prolong my life for 3-6 months, let me go.

Maybe I would be less cavalier about dying if I had kids, I don't know. But this is where I'm at right now. I've seen too many people slowly withering away on treatments that are just making them miserable to want that for myself. Hospice is infinitely preferable, in my opinion.

It's tough to think about these questions, but it's harder by an order of magnitude if you're only thinking about them when you are actively dying (or worse, you never have this conversation with any of your loved ones, you become unresponsive, and they are forced to guess). So my suggestion is to think about it before a crisis hits.
 
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Haus

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To the topic of the thread. Personally, I am in the "I would plan out my affairs, and make sure I went out in a way I'd prefer and not let my wife be financially destroyed from it" camp.

Living through a version of this from the outside right now. I have a family member with stage 4 lung cancer, just lost my oldest aunt to pancreatic cancer as well. This family member with the lung cancer is doing what the insurance will pay for, but not cashing out anything else, and not draining retirement on purpose. When they discovered the tumor (he had a cough for a week that wouldn't go away) it was an 8cm mass in his right lung. And showing evidence of having started metastasizing and showing up in his lymph nodes.

Right at the end of his first round of chemo his system threw a lot of clots and he ended up in the hospital for an emergency arterial roto rooter to clear the big ones from his lungs. While there, they scanned and the first round of chemo took it from an 8cm to a 5cm mass, and no longer showing traces in his lymph nodes. But from what I have heard being said by the Dr's that's just buying a little more time.
 
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Borzak

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Found out early on thanksgiving morning a friend of mine died to breast cancer, age 52. She called me a week or so ago and I didn't get the call and she didn't leave a message. I called her back a couple of times and left a message and never got her. She was pretty healthy as far as I know, not overweight and not a drinker or smoker.

Fuck cancer.
 
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Haus

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Update on my relative... He's decided that after experiencing what it took to get through chemo and subsequent immunotherapy treatments he's just not up for it. Has told everybody that he's just going to live out what he can, maybe do immunotherapy, but no more chemo. And I'm hearing he went back to enjoying the flavor country of smoking...

Upsets me because I see the stress it's putting on his wife, and the other relatives that are close to him. But at the same time I ethically support it being his decision on how he wants to handle (or not) the situation.

OTOH, it's preserving all his retirement and other money to take care of his wife once he's gone.
 
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moonarchia

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Haus said:
Update on my relative... He's decided that after experiencing what it took to get through chemo and subsequent immunotherapy treatments he's just not up for it. Has told everybody that he's just going to live out what he can, maybe do immunotherapy, but no more chemo. And I'm hearing he went back to enjoying the flavor country of smoking...

Upsets me because I see the stress it's putting on his wife, and the other relatives that are close to him. But at the same time I ethically support it being his decision on how he wants to handle (or not) the situation.

OTOH, it's preserving all his retirement and other money to take care of his wife once he's gone.
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Chance for a hug and a handshake. And a good reminder to cherish the time you have, because no one gets out alive in the end.
 
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Haus

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Relative's cancer rollercoaster continues...

They went in for a check up, they ran a new pet scan. 8cm mass initially, shrunk to 5cm as of around 2 months ago... Now at 3cm. So they're THINKING about giving up smoking again since it shrunk more. At this rate the cancer might not kill him but I might if he doesn't pick a damn lane. heh
 
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