College

Erronius · Nov 3, 2013

I'm surprised that we didn't have a generic college thread here, so I'll just copypasta this here from another thread:

I'm one, maybe two semesters away from a technical associates degree and a couple of classes beyond that I could get a 2nd tech associates and a certificate (due to a couple courses that are only offered every 4+ semesters or so). So my options so far seem to be:

Get out at Associates #1, go to work, do additional Associates and cert after work and call it quits. (immediate income but this might be my last chance to go further, though I'd have 2 AS and a Cert)
Transfer to a school offering "Electrical Technology" bachelor degrees. Most of my "tech" courses would transfer, so I've been told, but I'd have to move at least a couple hours away (might not have time to finish 2nd associates and cert here). Plus the "electrical tech" bachelors seems to be below a typical EE degree, if not in terms of prestige then in pay?
Transfer to a local 4 year that doesn't offer an Engineering Tech degree and do an EE instead, and bite the bullet when I end up with more than another 2 years more to do when many courses don't transfer to the EE. Seems like I'd have to rack up substantial student loan debt (at $0 so far and around 100 or so credits from 2 CCs)

WUTDO?

I'm waiting on a response from the closest 4 year school (UMKC) so I can see what will and won't transfer but I've been putting it off because I'm afraid that out of 100 credits or so they might take half of that if I'm lucky...

Also...how important is ABET in reality? Of course their own site will say that ABET accreditation is incredibly important, as will any school that is accredited, but it's hard finding any sort of unbiased opinion on how important finding a program that is ABET accredited actually is.

Noodleface · Nov 3, 2013

I guess first off, what do you want to do for a career?

This is important because it can help narrow down your choices. I was in a very similar situation and wound up doing option 3 (Computer Engineering).

I originally went to a CC here in MA for a Computer Science associates degree. I decided early on that they weren't really offering me enough classes where I felt comfortable that I could land a job so decided to transfer to a 4 year university to do engineering. I decided engineering because I wanted to do hardware instead of just programming, and I wanted the utility of a degree that was so multifaceted.

A lot of places aren't going to consider someone with an associates, especially over candidates with a BS or MS, and if they do it will most likely be for a very low entry-level job. I'm sure someone is going to come in and correct me, but a BS > Associates any day.

I do know a girl with an electrical tech degree and she sits on a production line all day making batteries for $16/hr. She could probably do better, but she continually tells me she wishes she instead went for EE>

All this said, and maybe I'm a bit biased personally, but I would go to a university and get an EE/CE degree. Yes, you will rack up debt. Yes, it will be probably the most difficult thing you've ever done. Yes, you won't sleep.. ever. But if you want to be an engineer, being an EE is one of the most versatile degrees you can get. You can do design work, programming, circuit debugging, big systems, tiny VLSI chips, you name it. Also, EEs make some major money. My first job out of college is starting me at $76k/year, and I know some EE's that started even higher. Of course, money isn't everything, so make sure it's something you really want to do.

As far as ABET.. it's tough to say. The thing with ABET certification is if your school has it when you graduate, then companies will know that you followed certain guidelines while obtaining your degree. I'm sure there are companies that might not care, but we've always been told it's extremely important. It's one of those things that if I was choosing between two schools and one had it and the other didn't, I'd go with the one that had it. I've heard it can be difficult for schools to get accredited, so it must be at least a little important.

Also, I've been in your shoes so if you have any questions ask away. I'm sure my post was more of a ramble than help.

Deathwing · Nov 3, 2013

I'm a CE that basically went the programming route with my career. But I still do the hardware part from time to time. Knowing how to use a oscilloscope in a test software department has really paid off. Anyway, I've never heard of an engineering tech degree. Never seen it on a job req(I've done serious job hunting 3 times in the last 8 years).

Maybe you should be Noodleface's boss since you knew what a pfet was.

Erronius · Nov 3, 2013

Noodleface_sl said:
I guess first off, what do you want to do for a career?

Man, I honestly don't even know. Anything that comes to mind sounds so over-the-top that I discount it immediately. As in, I wouldn't mind getting into some sort of military-related tech field - I've already been in the military and I don't mind travel - but really I've always felt like I could do anything. Then sometimes I think I would be happy just settling down and teaching while working on degrees.

It might sound crazy, but I used to be a tank mechanic...nothing fancy. Then I worked as a contractor in Iraq (not on tanks)...but then I caught myself staring at all the vehicles I've ever worked on driving around. And you know, I miss some of that, but I really don't want to just be some guy turning a wrench or rebuilding motors/drives/etc. It may sound sappy, but I really wanted to be involved in the creation of systems like that. Maybe it's a shitty field, who knows, but I really wanted to move upwards where I was doing something to create the systems instead of just working maintenance in some assembly plant somewhere (though there isn't anything wrong with that).

Noodleface_sl said:
A lot of places aren't going to consider someone with an associates, especially over candidates with a BS or MS, and if they do it will most likely be for a very low entry-level job. I'm sure someone is going to come in and correct me, but a BS > Associates any day.

Part of my problem is that I've been an electrician and with the 2 AS and the cert I could prob walk into a lot of jobs, so when people at school tell me that I won't see much of an advantage by doing another 2 years to get an EE...I dunno. I can see their point, but at the same time I think their focus is more on people already working in "tech" fields who take night classes, and they want to get people working as much if not more than they think about people transferring for higher degrees. I love the instructors, they really do want to help as much as they can, it just seems like the programs themselves are more geared towards finishing and 'going back to work' as opposed to transferring to a 4 year.

These programs ARE pretty industry specific and that's why I'm actually worried about what a 4-year would accept if I transfer:

Industrial Electrical
Instrumentation and Controls
Programmable Logic Controller Certificate

I'm also planning on taking the ETEC courses they offer (AC circuit, Digital, Analog, Microcontrollers) but that's more because the programs above are very linear (in regards to stacking prereqs) that I keep needing another class to round out a semester. I'd eyeball that AS too...but there is far less in common with the other programs and I'd need another 2+ semesters to also do the CADD/Programming/etc so I don't think I can remotely consider it, especially if I do go for an EE.

Noodleface_sl said:
I do know a girl with an electrical tech degree and she sits on a production line all day making batteries for $16/hr. She could probably do better, but she continually tells me she wishes she instead went for EE>

Yeah, do not want. I was already doing better than that, though not by much.

Noodleface_sl said:
I'm sure my post was more of a ramble than help.

No that was super helpful...and you've seen my long posts I'm sure, ramble away.

Drinsic · Nov 3, 2013

cheap whiskey was always the answer

Erronius · Nov 3, 2013

Deathwing_sl said:
Anyway, I've never heard of an engineering tech degree. Never seen it on a job req(I've done serious job hunting 3 times in the last 8 years).

I hadn't either until an instructor pointed them out to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...ing_technology

Deathwing_sl said:
Maybe you should be Noodleface's boss since you knew what a pfet was.

To be honest it only looked familiar because I'm seeing different transistors and the like from 2 separate courses atm...we just went over GTOs/SCRs and BJTs/FETs/IGBTs in Motor Drives, and some of it in AC circuit...but then I was digging out books and going through Multisim trying to find theexactsymbol before I went to google and went "ohhh". Multisim REALLY threw me because...well...I couldn't really find that exact symbol. I asked my instructor in class a few days later and he said something to the effect of that was a "generic" way of drawing it by hand (shorthand in a sense?) I don't even know lol, but Multisim pissed me right off LOL. I "need to go deeper" into the coursework before I get a handle on it, and I'm not even sure how much I'll retain afterwards.

Deathwing · Nov 4, 2013

Heh, I haven't used multisim since college. But again, I haven't done much design work either. Any design I did was in Cadence Virtuoso. I think their schematic application is much superior to multisim.

Yes, your instructor is correct, it's shorthand for a pfet. It's been so long that I couldn't even tell you the functional difference between the three you have pictured.

Noodleface · Nov 4, 2013

The reason is because I have been working with mosfets in class, specifically CMOS inverters, and when I saw the pfet I got all excited and saw the entire inverter heh. I'm no EE so it will probably be the one and only time I ever deal with one. I'm a programmer like you

ToeMissile · Nov 4, 2013

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and say that you'll never regret having obtained/finished/whatever an EE/related degree, but could very well end up wondering 'what if' if you don't.

That said:

- Choose a couple jobs that you think you'd enjoy doing.
- Find companies that do those things.
- Call them and ask what they look for.
- Get/do/learn those things.
- Profit?

Alex · Nov 4, 2013

I'd go for the engineering degree. I was in a CE program, but switched to IS because the elective classes were easier and a lot of the instructors assumed we went to vocational school for programming before we even began class. In hindsight, I wish I stuck CE but I wonder if I would've been left in the dust. Engineering degrees are the best. You get the better jobs with more pay. I'm in a good situation, but engineering degrees make you the cream of the crop.

Soriak_sl · Nov 4, 2013

The economic value of Associate's degrees overall is actually surprisingly low. I'd strongly suggest going for a BS, which also opens up the possibility of continuing for a Masters. If the barrier to doing electrical engineering is debt, I wouldn't worry about it. That's the kind of degree that pays for itself pretty quickly.

You may also want to consider looking beyond local universities. If you've been getting good grades in your courses, you may well be competitive for transfer admissions at more prestigious places. They may also come with significant financial aid that reduces the impact of having to retake some courses (they're probably going to accept fewer transfer courses than lower ranked schools). Seriously, do not underestimate the financial aid packages that are available to students.

I had to recruit an EE last year and we couldn't find an undergraduate for $30/hr -- they were either too busy with classes or had better paid opportunities available to them. Mind you, our engineering school is extremely selective, but still... that's a sizable wage for a student.

hodj · Nov 4, 2013

Go for the BS in Electrical engineering and don't worry about the debt, you'll still be paying less than your peers did for the degree.

Don't do like I did and add on two more majors and a minor after switching unless you are as crazy as I am.

hodj · Nov 4, 2013

Also, if you are attending a community college in your state and transfer to an instate university, in most states (but not all) those credits transfer 100%. Like here in Kentucky, I graduated from the Community Technical College system which was split off from the University system back in the 2000s for financial reasons. The school I attended, though, was at one time literally a branch of the University of Kentucky, Lexington Community College (LCC) but was split off and became Bluegrass Community and Technical College (BCTC). Still had the same professors, same classes, and the law in Kentucky is that the credits earned at the CC MUST have parity with the Universities in the state, and the Universities MUST accept those credits 1 to 1 when transferring in.

So I transferred over with like 90 credit hours. They don't count towards my GPA (which sucks balls because once I transferred I started taking all the upper division and pre req courses for the biology and chemistry degrees I added on as my majors) but they buttress me, so I can drop classes if I need to without fear of losing financial aid, I would basically have to fail every class for 3 or 4 straight semesters to lose my financial aid. Its a real blessing honestly. Most states have something like this set up, if yours doesn't that sucks ass, but you should definitely look and see because at the very minimum your college core should be totally filled out if that is the case.

Erronius · Nov 5, 2013

Soriak_sl said:
If the barrier to doing electrical engineering is debt, I wouldn't worry about it. That's the kind of degree that pays for itself pretty quickly.

It's not debt so much, but the time investment. I'm middle aged and going back to retrain, so on one hand I'm torn between getting back to work as soon as possible while knowing that if I pass up going all out on college now that I probably won't get another opportunity. And these AS degrees and certs will prob take me 2 1/2 years as it is already, and I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that so far it looks like I'll have to take more than another two years for an EE, it might quite possibly end up being 3 or so.

Part of me though feels like if I do commit to doing a bachelors that I should just say fuck it and go as far as possible. I'd probably be in my early 40s by the time I finished a BS, at that point I'm not sure if I shouldn't just try pushing past a bachelors.

Soriak_sl said:
If you've been getting good grades in your courses, you may well be competitive for transfer admissions at more prestigious places. They may also come with significant financial aid that reduces the impact of having to retake some courses (they're probably going to accept fewer transfer courses than lower ranked schools). Seriously, do not underestimate the financial aid packages that are available to students.

I've had a 4.0 so far and I think I can keep that going all the way through for the AS degrees (maybe I'll get a B at some point I dunno). I have another 60 credits or so from another CC that wraps up a lot of gen ed stuff that had a lower GPA back when I didn't take it close to serious but I'm not sure what it would average out to be total.

All that said I am a bit worried about how I'll do in the high-end stuff like 400 level math and the like. On occasion I hear people at the CC complain about course difficulty and it kind of blows my mind.

Soriak_sl said:
that's a sizable wage for a student.

WAT

I'm doing part time at the CC through FAFSA, IIRC, think that's $8. Mind you I can work when I can fit it in, it's tax free and the instructors treat me extremely well, but still....lol.

Noodleface · Nov 5, 2013

My internship as a software engineer is $24/hour, probably more than most Americans make yearly (~$50k/yr). It's no joke.

Don't worry about math courses, the real shitstorm is stuff like emag theory and signals (for me anyways). Math was always just a stepping stone. Not sure how far you've gotten in CC with math but in engineering you basically do calc 1-3, discrete math, differential equations, physics1-2. This stuff is used pretty heavily in circuit design and analysis, and extremely heavily in emag. If math comes easy enough to you it's a breeze, and if not just study your ass off.

FYI, although I am not quite as old as you, I'm finishing my BS at age 30. There are some people in their 60s doing it as well here.

Big Phoenix · Nov 5, 2013

hodj_sl said:
Also, if you are attending a community college in your state and transfer to an instate university, in most states (but not all) those credits transfer 100%. Like here in Kentucky, I graduated from the Community Technical College system which was split off from the University system back in the 2000s for financial reasons. The school I attended, though, was at one time literally a branch of the University of Kentucky, Lexington Community College (LCC) but was split off and became Bluegrass Community and Technical College (BCTC). Still had the same professors, same classes, and the law in Kentucky is that the credits earned at the CC MUST have parity with the Universities in the state, and the Universities MUST accept those credits 1 to 1 when transferring in.

So I transferred over with like 90 credit hours. They don't count towards my GPA (which sucks balls because once I transferred I started taking all the upper division and pre req courses for the biology and chemistry degrees I added on as my majors) but they buttress me, so I can drop classes if I need to without fear of losing financial aid, I would basically have to fail every class for 3 or 4 straight semesters to lose my financial aid. Its a real blessing honestly. Most states have something like this set up, if yours doesn't that sucks ass, but you should definitely look and see because at the very minimum your college core should be totally filled out if that is the case.

Whoa, here you can only transfer 64 credits.

Alex · Nov 5, 2013

Also going to chime in on student internship/co-op wages and say that I made a little over $20/hour. That's some good Cincinnati money. Internships are everything. I had three years of relevant work experience by the time I graduated.

hodj · Nov 5, 2013

Erronius_sl said:
It's not debt so much, but the time investment. I'm middle aged and going back to retrain, so on one hand I'm torn between getting back to work as soon as possible while knowing that if I pass up going all out on college now that I probably won't get another opportunity. And these AS degrees and certs will prob take me 2 1/2 years as it is already, and I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that so far it looks like I'll have to take more than another two years for an EE, it might quite possibly end up being 3 or so.

Part of me though feels like if I do commit to doing a bachelors that I should just say fuck it and go as far as possible. I'd probably be in my early 40s by the time I finished a BS, at that point I'm not sure if I shouldn't just try pushing past a bachelors.

Retirement age will be 70 by the time you get there, don't sweat it. Go as far as you can stand. It will pay off in spades. And it might not take you over two years to finish up the BS, it depends on how many classes you take. If you take 15 credit hours a semester, plus summer courses, you might finish right at two years, or even less. Its entirely possible, as long as you can handle the courseload.

Big Phoenix_sl said:
Whoa, here you can only transfer 64 credits.

I'd be super pissed if that was the case here. I mean really truly pissed.

ubiquitrips · Nov 5, 2013

I can only speak from personal experience as someone looking for a job and later as a manager looking for employees. In the tech industry (Admin, Infrastructure, not programming) the only thing a BS / MS will help you with more than an associates is getting a foot in the door when unemployment is high and folks are eliminated before a chance to speak. Unemployment with typical IT guys is exceedingly low in MN. Everyone that is good at what they do has a job. Everyone who is not good at what they do does not have a job.

When I started out in IT, I was a 2 year layoff out of Dunwoody in MN. I had to take a crap entry level field service job making 26k just to get my foot in the door. However, if you get in the right place (MSPs are awesome for starting out) you can take responsibility and learn as long as you are willing to put in the effort. The experience factor in these jobs completely blows away a degree in my opinion.

After 7 years in the industry, no one even looks at my schooling anymore. It is purely a technical / personality check. This has led me to working in typical IT support, engineering, IT director type positions for approximately 100ish employee businesses. Mind you, this may change for large scale enterprises.

When I am in the business of looking for employees, the thing that matters most to me is a person's personality, work ethic, and drive (I know, cheesy). Historically speaking, I have had better success with 2 year degree folks than 4+. It is an interesting phenomenon, I would say the 4+ year folks are generally more even in terms of most of the candidates being average. The 2 years have more slacker / lazy people but more gems.

Alex · Nov 5, 2013

Getting your foot in the door is the first step to getting seven years of industry experience. Go for the BS.

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