Daybreak Sues The Heroes Journey EQ EMU Server Devs

Zaide said:

Nagafen hits a lot harder than 225 on TLP.

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ya but naggy doesnt cast on tlps when you have good placement

hory said:

Dumb fuck when you're making money you have incentive to develop the game and code numerous QoL improvements. You think the entire self found and dungeon system they where about to launch came about because they where looking to kill some time.

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I always thought the Self Found idea was really cool.

Mrniceguy said:

Not really and only because of MOTM.

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I think if anybody knows anything about Nagafen, it would be Zaide as he's killed that dragon about a million times or more on TLPs. I mean, if we needed a subject matter expert when it comes to killing dragons in EQ, he pretty much fits the mold lol.

They're numbers in a video game. He hits for high like 280 max without MoTM(how much he actually hit for on THJ) and right around 500 max with MoTM. But max hit doesn't really determine how much damage a mob does, it's ATK and accuracy play a much bigger role and those numbers were unchanged.

Sylas said:

why would you say this? Torrid seems quite knowledgeable he was just misinformed on THJ. He thought they nerfed the mobs instead of buffing players, a minor triviality which is purely academic at this point.

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Your take assumed aow quaded for 12k and was an accurate representation of og eq in an era where tanks had 7k max hp. You seriously never have a god damn clue what you are talking about if it involves a number.

Your claim was the guy who literally reverse engineered a majority of original eq couldnt wrap his head around thj being "accurate" while being wildy off on your numbers is why I say this.

Mrniceguy said:

There numbers in a video game. He hits for high like 280 max without MoTM(how much he actually hit for on THJ) and right around 500 max with MoTM. But max hit doesn't really determine how much damage a mob does, it's ATK and accuracy play a much bigger role and those numbers were unchanged.

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Zaide said he hits more than 280 on a tlp. You said thats not not true but also it is true but its only because of motm.

Why are you being so disingenuous and acting like a non motm version of naggy is relevant in any aspect ever one tlp?

I didn't play THJ, so if the claim is that mobs weren't nerfed I'm curious about:

1. Did classic bosses with DT retain those Death Touch abilities?
2. Did THJ spawn the full 12 member Rathe Council with their native PB AE and native respawn mechanics?
3. The various bosses that "banish" players, did they retain this banish ability? (E.g. Trakanon, Dain, the Praesertums in Sanctus Seru.)

I ask because it would seem difficult to have these encounters be soloable if those abilities were retained unless the player buffing was such that it buffed players stat wise up to ~lvl 80 or so equivalent in the normal EQ client.

dragonbr said:

Zaide said he hits more than 280 on a tlp. You said thats not not true but also it is true but its only because of motm.

Why are you being so disingenuous and acting like a non motm version of naggy is relevant in any aspect ever one tlp?

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MOTM gets removed. It's not on TLPs outside of early eras. So even from a "well ACKUALLY" standpoint it's wrong.

But the reality is if a mob hits for 280 or 510 it doesn't actually change it's DPS output all that much unless it also gets higher ATK and Accuracy stats.

And for reference AoW really does hit that fucking hard. It basically one rounds any Warrior that doesn't have defensive up when you have Kunark gear. See mobs don't always hit for max, can miss and also have skill check like players to determine how many times they swing in a round. They don't always do max attacks.

Sieger said:

I didn't play THJ, so if the claim is that mobs weren't nerfed I'm curious about:

1. Did classic bosses with DT retain those Death Touch abilities?
2. Did THJ spawn the full 12 member Rathe Council with their native PB AE and native respawn mechanics?
3. The various bosses that "banish" players, did they retain this banish ability? (E.g. Trakanon, Dain, the Praesertums in Sanctus Seru.)

I ask because it would seem difficult to have these encounters be soloable if those abilities were retained unless the player buffing was such that it buffed players stat wise up to ~lvl 80 or so equivalent in the normal EQ client.

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Mobs on THJ were "nerfed" mechanically not statistically and only really nerfed when it would've made it impossible to solo/duo.

Rathe didn't have the Respawn time limit. But did have the AEs, damage ect. and needed to be solo split if you wanted to do it solo.
Other things like the HOHa Trials also had certain fail conditions removed
Vallon in Time had like a 2-3 second stun instead of a 20 second stun.

Okay so the mobs were significantly nerfed in a way that made them entirely different encounters.

Sieger said:

Okay so the mobs were significantly nerfed in a way that made them entirely different encounters.

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Some mobs were nerfed in ways that made them entirely different encounters.
Some mobs like Seru were buffed in ways that made entirely different encounters.
But the goal was to make the game solo or small group accessible and only when that wasn't possible were mobs nerfed. Ultimately player power was brought up rather than NPC power down.

Except in cases where NPC power was massively nerfed.

You guys are jumping on Torrid calling THJ an easy mode emu but that basically appears to be what it was? I also think the THJ guys had made a prior emu that was explicitly easy mode, with a number of things carrying over from it. From what I've seen THJ was just an evolution of that, and the design philosophy was definitely "making the game easier."

Which frankly doesn't matter to me--I would never touch an emu since I don't want to get autism or brain AIDS. The ways in which "real" EQ is hard are almost all in the form of "tedious, unfun shit" and not "actual challenging / interesting gameplay." There's a reason EQ lives in the shit hole of history and isn't held up as a gold standard MMO.

It was mentioned that WoW Classic players cared more about WoWC having fidelity to OG WoW than EQ TLP players do--that's true but that's because they are fundamentally different. Despite a few mistakes and some dated design decisions, 2005 era vanilla WoW was Blizzard back before it became a trash can at basically its peak, it was a genuinely good MMO. Easy to get into, but difficult to master.

EQ was extremely hard to get into due to having no on ramps, but once mastered was actually a thin game with no depth. That's why people revisiting it 20 years later don't care about the fidelity to the original, the original wasn't anything.

Mrniceguy said:

MOTM gets removed. It's not on TLPs outside of early eras. So even from a "well ACKUALLY" standpoint it's wrong.

But the reality is if a mob hits for 280 or 510 it doesn't actually change it's DPS output all that much unless it also gets higher ATK and Accuracy stats.

And for reference AoW really does hit that fucking hard. It basically one rounds any Warrior that doesn't have defensive up when you have Kunark gear. See mobs don't always hit for max, can miss and also have skill check like players to determine how many times they swing in a round. They don't always do max attacks.



Mobs on THJ were "nerfed" mechanically not statistically and only really nerfed when it would've made it impossible to solo/duo.

Rathe didn't have the Respawn time limit. But did have the AEs, damage ect. and needed to be solo split if you wanted to do it solo.
Other things like the HOHa Trials also had certain fail conditions removed
Vallon in Time had like a 2-3 second stun instead of a 20 second stun.

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What are you even talking about? Every other person in the thread can read the post and understand we're looking at the mob in the context of when 99% of players are going to fight him on any given server aka Classic and Kunark. Do we need to talk about how easy Nagafen is on TLP in Night of Shadows when he can't hit through your Wurmslayer shielding and dies to any attack?

I am dumb enough to have done server first Nagafen on TLP, on P99 and on Quarm. Without a doubt he was easiest on P99, and hardest by a wide margin on TLP's, specifically post Lockjaw when servers launched with MoTM. That goes for every raid mob in Classic and Kunark. The buff package mobs received in conjunction with Mitigation of the Mighty, Mark of the Old Ways and Presence of the Mighty makes them far more difficult than they have been on P99/PQ. I can't speak for TAKP but I am guessing the mobs and player power were very similar compared to the PQ versions at launch.

People unfairly shit on those early TLP raids. While the group game on TLP is easier than P99/TAKP/Quarm, the raid content in Classic and Kunark is much much more difficult. I'd like to see anyone who has raided in era on all 3 make a case otherwise.

Zaide said:

I am dumb enough to have done server first Nagafen on TLP, on P99 and on Quarm. Without a doubt he was easiest on P99, and hardest by a wide margin on TLP's, specifically post Lockjaw when servers launched with MoTM. That goes for every raid mob in Classic and Kunark. The buff package mobs received in conjunction with Mitigation of the Mighty, Mark of the Old Ways and Presence of the Mighty makes them far more difficult than they have been on P99/PQ. I can't speak for TAKP but I am guessing the mobs and player power were very similar compared to the PQ versions at launch.

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Players have higher skill caps and better versions of spells on TLPs. Classic and Kunark mobs are much more tanking on TLPs, in that regard they're "harder" on TLPs. But the damage output they do to tanks isn't that different.

In the later eras MoTM mobs actually do significantly less damage to tanks on TLPs then they originally did. The Heroic stat revamp in PoP is actually disgustingly overturned for tank stats and the mobs do like half the damage the originally did once you start stacking Time gear. The massive gearflation from AoCs even quickly trivializes how hard Velious mobs hit on TLPs vs how hard they hit originally.

Mrniceguy said:

MOTM gets removed. It's not on TLPs outside of early eras. So even from a "well ACKUALLY" standpoint it's wrong.

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I dont even understand your argument. You were the fool who initiated this bullshit with "well ackually he doesnt hit for over that amount once motm is removed" aka when no one gives two fucks about the mob anymore and his damage output is completely meaningless.


Honestly, what's wrong with you?

dragonbr said:

I dont even understand your argument.

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That's cause you're retarded i can't help you with that one.

I mean THJ was definitely pretty easy mode. It was also fun and engaging in a way that other EZ servers were not.

Torrid said he didn't get the appeal, which makes sense as he didn't play it and doesn't seem to really get how it's differentiated from other EZ servers.

I do think there was one Emu that was similar, but it wasn't up for too long. Maybe with more time it would have caught on (which I think was Torrid's point? Like why this one and not others?). lt was called Nagafen's Lair; Maize hosted it for a while before taking it down. No multi classing, but structured progression that you could reasonably 3 box everything (at least through Luclin). Fights themselves were largely the same (ex some disabled abilities). It was pretty popular here for a while, but had a lot of polish issues and scaling into PoP was horrible.

Being able to feel like you're playing the game you grew up loving, but solo and with some definitive character progression is fun for those short on time. Other EZ servers that I tried were weirdly tuned, weirdly custom, and or needed a box setup that required MQ2 to progress. This one got the balance just right for that audience (imo).