Daybreak Sues The Heroes Journey EQ EMU Server Devs

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Breakdown

Gunnar Durden
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hory said:
I think he's trying to say if you bought Kunark in 2000 daybreak can never take the assets from you it's a constitutional right.
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even if that was relevant, THJ is pulling a live copy and most users never bought any expansions. Once they went freemium that shit went out the window.

I think he’s trying to suggest the agreement that only one emulator, P99 has, is somehow relevant to this situation.
 
Cinge

Cinge

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Will be interesting to see how it turns out. It has a lot of ramifications beyond just EQ.
 
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Sylas

Sylas

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Well there is actually sort of a murky area.

They aren't using eq's code they are using the eq emulators code which is open source and pretty much what everyone uses for their emu.

In addition to an extra 20 years of spaghetti code on top of it the live code also has replaced like half the original zones, maps, meshes, character data etc.
So really, is it copyright infringement cus they are using names trademarked by daybreak? If they just change the names to tinnoruuk and mazic rhule can they keep operating?

is the code open source or not?
 
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Kirun

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It'll be interesting to hear the court's opinion on why they've let their source code be hijacked and used to run all sorts of EMUs for 20+ years - to the point that the EMU code is now basically a completely separate thing. And that whole time they've never really lifted a single finger, despite some of those servers taking in "donations".

If "protecting" the IP was that important, they would've put the screws to the EMU community decades ago. This is just the first time an EMU has embarrassed them from an engagement/activity standpoint, so NOW they have a problem with it, suddenly.
 
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your_mum

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Legal and Copyright Considerations​


✅ You rewrote your own server:​


  • Rewriting a server from scratch (i.e. without using or copying the company's server code) may be technically legal in some jurisdictions, if you haven't used or reverse-engineered protected server code.
  • This is commonly done in "private server" communities (e.g., Minecraft, WoW, RuneScape), but legality varies.

❌ You're using the official game client:​


  • Most game clients are copyrighted and come with a license agreement (EULA or ToS).
  • These agreements almost always prohibit connecting to unauthorized servers or using the client for anything other than the intended, official service.
  • Even if you haven’t modified the client, using it with a custom server often violates the license.

❌ Reverse engineering:​


  • If you reverse engineeredthe client or server protocol to build your server, that may violate:
    • The DMCA (in the U.S.)
    • Copyright law (in many jurisdictions)
    • EULAs (which can be enforceable contracts)


❌ What Gets Server Creators in Trouble:​


  1. Reverse engineering the client or server binaries
    • In the U.S. and many countries, this often violates the DMCA.
    • Even if reverse engineering is legal for interoperability in some jurisdictions, it's often prohibited by the game’s EULA, which courts have enforced.
  2. Allowing access to copyrighted content
    • If your server causes the client to access copyrighted material (e.g., quests, game text, world maps that reside client-side), some companies argue that you're still facilitating copyright infringement.
  3. Running a private server that competes with the official game
    • If the original game is still active, publishers may sue for:
      • Copyright infringement
      • Breach of contract
      • Unfair competition
  4. Monetizing the server
    • This massively increases legal risk. Accepting donations, selling in-game perks, or showing ads can provoke much faster legal action.
 
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Control

Control

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Sylas said:
So really, is it copyright infringement cus they are using names trademarked by daybreak?
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Why not try launching a MMO using all Disney characters and see how it goes? I'm sure if you use your own code, it'll be no problem, right?
 
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Cinge

Cinge

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Trademark easily covers image rights too. Not just names.

From what I remember EQ emulator is software that then lets you manipulate EQ software(aka you can change a quest, but all the items, npcs, parts are still from original code). The first is open source, the 2nd is still very much owned by someone else.

Honestly THJs biggest argument will probably by "why let all these emulators run for so long but suddenly try to stop one". Not sure that will be enough but they cant exactly argue they not using stuff copyrighted by another company, when disclaimers are all over their website about it.
 
Gravel

Gravel

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your_mum said:

Legal and Copyright Considerations​


✅ You rewrote your own server:​


  • Rewriting a server from scratch (i.e. without using or copying the company's server code) may be technically legal in some jurisdictions, if you haven't used or reverse-engineered protected server code.
  • This is commonly done in "private server" communities (e.g., Minecraft, WoW, RuneScape), but legality varies.

❌ You're using the official game client:​


  • Most game clients are copyrighted and come with a license agreement (EULA or ToS).
  • These agreements almost always prohibit connecting to unauthorized servers or using the client for anything other than the intended, official service.
  • Even if you haven’t modified the client, using it with a custom server often violates the license.

❌ Reverse engineering:​


  • If you reverse engineeredthe client or server protocol to build your server, that may violate:
    • The DMCA (in the U.S.)
    • Copyright law (in many jurisdictions)
    • EULAs (which can be enforceable contracts)


❌ What Gets Server Creators in Trouble:​


  1. Reverse engineering the client or server binaries
    • In the U.S. and many countries, this often violates the DMCA.
    • Even if reverse engineering is legal for interoperability in some jurisdictions, it's often prohibited by the game’s EULA, which courts have enforced.
  2. Allowing access to copyrighted content
    • If your server causes the client to access copyrighted material (e.g., quests, game text, world maps that reside client-side), some companies argue that you're still facilitating copyright infringement.
  3. Running a private server that competes with the official game
    • If the original game is still active, publishers may sue for:
      • Copyright infringement
      • Breach of contract
      • Unfair competition
  4. Monetizing the server
    • This massively increases legal risk. Accepting donations, selling in-game perks, or showing ads can provoke much faster legal action.
Click to expand...
Most of those points seem to prohibit an individual from connecting to the server using an EQ client, but the server itself is using the emulated version which, as someone stated, is 20 years in the making and at this point entirely separate.
 
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Control

Control

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Gravel said:
Most of those points seem to prohibit an individual from connecting to the server using an EQ client, but the server itself is using the emulated version which, as someone stated, is 20 years in the making and at this point entirely separate.
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I could agree that that would get pretty fuzzy if they did a complete conversion on all content, although if the only way to utilize it is via the eq client, that seems like it would still be an issue since you require the customer to use Daybreak's product to use yours. But, has anyone ever set up an emu with a completely from-scratch db? I know some are very custom, but if you're starting with an EQ content dump, I think you're gonna have a bad time in court. And if you are truly doing a total conversion, you'd be far better off using someone's commercial middleware.
 
Drakurii

Drakurii

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Kirun said:
It'll be interesting to hear the court's opinion on why they've let their source code be hijacked and used to run all sorts of EMUs for 20+ years - to the point that the EMU code is now basically a completely separate thing. And that whole time they've never really lifted a single finger, despite some of those servers taking in "donations".

If "protecting" the IP was that important, they would've put the screws to the EMU community decades ago. This is just the first time an EMU has embarrassed them from an engagement/activity standpoint, so NOW they have a problem with it, suddenly.
Click to expand...
Who is "they"? Have "they" been this same "they" for these decades you speak of?
 
Y

your_mum

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Gravel said:
Most of those points seem to prohibit an individual from connecting to the server using an EQ client, but the server itself is using the emulated version which, as someone stated, is 20 years in the making and at this point entirely separate.
Click to expand...
I agree, but the final points from that chatgpt slop is 100% accurate and everything THJ did.

They reversed engineered the client way more than mq2 did or other eqemu servers like TAKP/Quarm... nothing in mq2 or Quarm comes close to the client side mods they needed to do to make multiclass work in the client.

They are hosting an eqemu server that requires an official client to connect.

They were competing with Fangbreaker; i'm not saying they truly were because I agree that TLP was a flop, but technically they are.

They monetized it.


I played THJ, worked on eqemu, worked on mq2, been in this scene for 20+ years. They are not doing anything different than any other mq2 or eqemu project in my opinion. However, the multiclass, which wasn't even them originally, is what scares EQ the most imo. (It directly conflicts with personas which is a revenue stream in TLP now. Combine that with TLP flop and a THJ success then I don't blame them.) There's a reason why any successful WoW emu server must host in EU countries. Why anyone thinks this is different for EQ, I don't know.
 
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Kirun

Kirun

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Drakurii said:
Who is "they"? Have "they" been this same "they" for these decades you speak of?
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Why does it matter? SoE allowed it for over a decade. Daybreak has owned the IP for a decade now too.

You honestly think it took them a decade to know that an entire EMU community existed?

They knew and they did jack shit, through multiple owners. SoE had all the opportunity in the world, especially early on when they were raking in tons of cash from EQ - to the point its revenue was funding other shit at the company. If anytime was an example, it was then, especially before it developed into an "EMU community". And now Daybreak has had the last 10 years to do something.

Crickets...until they got embarrassed and the suits cracked the whips. It's going to be interesting to hear their arguments for why they didn't give a flying fuck about "protecting" this super valuable IP for so long, until 2 nerds generated more interest in EQ than they have in 10 years.
 
mkopec

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Kirun said:
Why does it matter? SoE allowed it for over a decade. Daybreak has owned the IP for a decade now too.

You honestly think it took them a decade to know that an entire EMU community existed?

They knew and they did jack shit, through multiple owners. SoE had all the opportunity in the world, especially early on when they were raking in tons of cash from EQ - to the point its revenue was funding other shit at the company. If anytime was an example, it was then, especially before it developed into an "EMU community". And now Daybreak has had the last 10 years to do something.

Crickets...until they got embarrassed and the suits cracked the whips. It's going to be interesting to hear their arguments for why they didn't give a flying fuck about "protecting" this super valuable IP for so long, until 2 nerds generated more interest in EQ than they have in 10 years.
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I mean, does it really matter though? Sure they existed for decade, shit, even longer. But it never hurt them until now. THJ was THAT popular. Plus all the streamers, youtubers, etc... Prob didnt help either promoting the shit out of it. Its mostly what you saw when you hit up twitch EQ, THJ streams for days. Bottom line is that these emus were riding the line for a long fuicking time. And what saved them was the shit populations and lack of popularity. But once something popular hit, well there is the problem. At least thats how I would argue it from an arm chair court room. What was the most popular emus hitting population wise? P99 with 600-900 at its peak? Well THJ had 4x that and quickly too.
 
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Kirun

Kirun

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mkopec said:
I mean, does it really matter though? Sure they existed for decade, shit, even longer. But it never hurt them until now. THJ was THAT popular. Plus all the streamers, youtubers, etc... Prob didnt help either promoting the shit out of it. Bottom line is that these emus were riding the line for a long fuicing time. And what saved them was the shit populations and popularity of them all. But once something popular hit, well thare is a problem.
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"It was only ok when the EMU community was stealing from us just a little. It wasn't ok when they started stealing a lot!"

That's an interesting argument. Like you said, it probably doesn't matter - theft is theft, I guess. But if I were the judge I'd have serious questions why you kept lettings thieves steal your purse every night if your property was so important, yet didn't call the police until they stole your car.
 
mkopec

mkopec

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Kirun said:
"It was only ok when the EMU community was stealing from us just a little. It wasn't ok when they started stealing a lot!"

That's an interesting argument. Like you said, it probably doesn't matter - theft is theft, I guess. But if I were the judge I'd have serious questions why you kept lettings thieves steal your purse every night if your property was so important, yet didn't call the police until they stole your car.
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These Emus started way before daybreak took over. And of course they knew about them, but like I said if they didnt feel it in the bottom line, why spend the cash for lawyers for some piddly emus hosting 100 people? But once when that 4K server pops up and popularity soars at about the time you release a new product, its a problem.

Dont think of it as stealing a purse vs stealing a car. Thats a criminal matter, this is more of a civil suit. Think of your neighbor either having his dog shit on your lawn or one day he decides to paint swastikas on your garage door and you have it all on your ring cam. The poop you can let go, yorue definitely not hiring lwayers for that shit. But hes definitely getting sued for the defacing of your property and the damages.
 
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Cinge

Cinge

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iirc they had an agreement with 1, p99. That was it.

I would guess no others have ever gotten big enough to be anything but hobby server to them. This one just happen to do 2 things to draw their attention, become quite large and start selling their own currency for in game items.

Though who knows, others could of simply got a C&D notice but ignored it and are just not worth the cost to go to court for.
 
moonarchia

moonarchia

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Sylas said:
Well there is actually sort of a murky area.

They aren't using eq's code they are using the eq emulators code which is open source and pretty much what everyone uses for their emu.

In addition to an extra 20 years of spaghetti code on top of it the live code also has replaced like half the original zones, maps, meshes, character data etc.
So really, is it copyright infringement cus they are using names trademarked by daybreak? If they just change the names to tinnoruuk and mazic rhule can they keep operating?

is the code open source or not?
Click to expand...
The entire work is copyrighted. The client. The art assets, the names, the story. All of it. You can't use any of that without permission from DPG, and you can expect to get sued if you are making money off of it.
 
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