Death of a Game - Everquest franchise

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Elidroth

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It's really time for people to let go of the EQ nostalgia. I don't mean quit playing the original if that's what you like, but the idea that a new EQ could ever be as satisfying or fun as the original was back at launch isn't possible. It could never match up to what people expect to feel IMO. Even just rebuilding EQ in a modern engine wouldn't do it, because there would be no sense of discovery. No 'newness' to it. Problem is, you also can't really create a new world with new lore and call it EQ, because then it's just a random game with EQ slapped on it.
 
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iannis

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A large part of the social success was network building out of game. Those networks are built now.

You were coming off an entire generation of gamers that used to buy ten dollar cheat books for sierra games. Those cheat books exist still they're youtube videos or reddit thread. The technology itself was advancing so rapidly, much more rapidly than we'll see again anytime soon in personal computers. It might happen again if they ever manage to get quantum computing to be commercially viable or even appealing. Endgame hardcore EQ was exclusionary to an extreme and served as a way for young men to prove themselves to each other in a new social context, without having to join the military. The rest of it though was very inclusionary and inseperable from outside social forces.

Everquest is probably the first time that a lot of people had prolonged personal conversations with someone outside of America. Shit. Outside their COUNTY. You had the chink guilds, the euro guilds. You knew those people and probably talked to them. That did not happen just 15 years prior outside of a business context. Just 5 years before EQ I was racking up massive long distance fees talking to my girlfriend who lived 200 miles away. You were not just casually chatting with some random German nerd.

EQ can't compete with facebook. And lets be honest, that's what most of us were using it for. It was proto social media. You'd mostly log in to chat. A place to hang out with people who shared a similar interest and just chat. That's why the combat being so slow worked. It gave you ample time for just shooting the shit in a group of 6 people. It's why I personally thought that WoW would fizzle out fairly quickly. The combat was much faster and it was harder to just sit and chat. Well I was wrong about that!

EMU's are good. There was a fairly decent game buried in that. But the game wasn't EQ, not really.
 
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Synj

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Elidroth said:
It's really time for people to let go of the EQ nostalgia. I don't mean quit playing the original if that's what you like, but the idea that a new EQ could ever be as satisfying or fun as the original was back at launch isn't possible. It could never match up to what people expect to feel IMO. Even just rebuilding EQ in a modern engine wouldn't do it, because there would be no sense of discovery. No 'newness' to it. Problem is, you also can't really create a new world with new lore and call it EQ, because then it's just a random game with EQ slapped on it.
Click to expand...

Disagree.

One of my favorite parts about EQ2 were the heritage quests/items.

They could make an entire expansion for instance about Unrest, expand the maze, fight to get through it or explore it for hidden offshoots or a raid encounter in the middle of the maze. Make the house ginormous and allow shortcuts a la Dark Souls where you can either go the long way or use a ladder or hidden bookcase if you've done it before. Make the basement a raid zone with multiple raids that are opened by server wide events. Make crafting that is specific to killing the undead, or at least making it more efficient. Rinse and repeat with Castle Mistmoore, Guk, Sebilis, etc. Take the most popular zones from EQ and make an entire expansion sized game out of each one. Make it Dark Souls EQ MMO:Unrest.

Make everything prettier, newer, bigger, add in some fan service for the dinosaurs and you might have a winner. Or I could be 100% wrong, but I'd play the shit out of those.
 
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Flobee

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I don't know about making an entire expansion out of unrest. A remaster of eq that used some of those ideas though could be good if it was done well. Maybe take each zone and expand it to add detail while maintaining is identity. You could probably double or triple the content in classic eq if they expanded existing zones, storylines, and lore. Finished unfinished content etc. If you get the hardcore eq nerds excited they'll energize a much larger group I believe. FF7 style remaster has some potential imo.

Good fucking luck to the team that tries to remaster eq without pissing half the player base off. It's cool in theory, it just doesn't seem likely.

Fun to daydream about though as I play TLP# 6 or whatever its on now.

Edit: worth adding that while this is nostalgia driven, I do believe that eq has enough depth that it could be expanded on in a way that would have value for more than just former players. If it was done right.
 
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Ravishing

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Elidroth said:
It's really time for people to let go of the EQ nostalgia. I don't mean quit playing the original if that's what you like, but the idea that a new EQ could ever be as satisfying or fun as the original was back at launch isn't possible. It could never match up to what people expect to feel IMO. Even just rebuilding EQ in a modern engine wouldn't do it, because there would be no sense of discovery. No 'newness' to it. Problem is, you also can't really create a new world with new lore and call it EQ, because then it's just a random game with EQ slapped on it.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm one of the few that actually like the EQ world/lore, idk.. I'd definitely play EQ again IF DONE RIGHT.

EQ2 had a lot of downfalls... and a big problem for me was the world being so disconnected from EQ1.

EQ world/lore with Gods, Dragons, Planes... is just so cool. EQ2 decided to blow up Luclin and get rid of Gods/Planes... has this changed? Was the strangest decision ever imo.

But lets be honest, making a fun as hell game is simply hard no matter the world/lore you're using.

I'd also consider a Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, or new Star Wars MMO, but would they be fun? You never know.

So yea, you're right that EQ might not be as satisfying as the original, but only because making MMOs is so difficult. And it's not unique to EQ. You may as well just replace EQ with "MMO"
 
Fight

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Synj said:
They could make an entire expansion for instance about Unrest....
Click to expand...
Flobee said:
I don't know about making an entire expansion out of unrest...
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It has essentially been done and it was a pretty bad ass expansion. One of the last EQ expansions that they actually took time, man-power, and effort to craft a complete experience. I would call it a very successful entry into the EQ world.
eq:House of Thule Overview
 
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Elidroth

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House of Thule was a fun expansion to work on.. It's really where we started going back to revisit old locations and lore and started expanding upon it. It's also the precursor to when we decided to start making changes.. It set the stage for when we finally killed Cazic Thule for real.. Some people didn't like it, but it opened the door to let the world actually evolve some, and gave us more avenues of storytelling..
 
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Ambiturner

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Elidroth said:
House of Thule was a fun expansion to work on.. It's really where we started going back to revisit old locations and lore and started expanding upon it. It's also the precursor to when we decided to start making changes.. It set the stage for when we finally killed Cazic Thule for real.. Some people didn't like it, but it opened the door to let the world actually evolve some, and gave us more avenues of storytelling..
Click to expand...

Good thing you guys struck while the iron was hot!
 
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Locnar

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Elidroth said:
It's really time for people to let go of the EQ nostalgia. I don't mean quit playing the original if that's what you like, but the idea that a new EQ could ever be as satisfying or fun as the original was back at launch isn't possible. It could never match up to what people expect to feel IMO. Even just rebuilding EQ in a modern engine wouldn't do it, because there would be no sense of discovery. No 'newness' to it. Problem is, you also can't really create a new world with new lore and call it EQ, because then it's just a random game with EQ slapped on it.
Click to expand...

I don't agree because Vanguard BEFORE Silius dumbed it down actually gave me those old EQ feelings. The world was so big and leveling slow, that you got to know the group of people who happened to have traveled to the one of several level appropriate areas that you were in. You had the locals and usual suspects day after day up in Trengel Keep area, or what not. Also dungeon crawling worked and was immensely fulfilling.

It can be done so long as they stick to the fundamental truths of old school MMO design. They CANNOT panic and lessen the harshness, grind, punishment, whatever you want to call it because that is the foundation that everything else relies on and is build upon. Vangaurd both panicked and suffered from a few systems being incomplete (hello faction).
 
Locnar

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I'm so bitter about Vangaurd and not for the reasons most people are. They HAD a great game and I watched in real time as they tore it apart bit by bit, screaming to them on their forums over what a mistake they were making. Such a shame. I miss it as much as the first two years of EQ. (well almost)
 
Vandyn

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Locnar said:
I don't agree because Vanguard BEFORE Silius dumbed it down actually gave me those old EQ feelings. The world was so big and leveling slow, that you got to know the group of people who happened to have traveled to the one of several level appropriate areas that you were in. You had the locals and usual suspects day after day up in Trengel Keep area, or what not. Also dungeon crawling worked and was immensely fulfilling.

It can be done so long as they stick to the fundamental truths of old school MMO design. They CANNOT panic and lessen the harshness, grind, punishment, whatever you want to call it because that is the foundation that everything else relies on and is build upon. Vangaurd both panicked and suffered from a few systems being incomplete (hello faction).
Click to expand...

Yea but how long ago was Vanguard? I firmly believe that a game like EQ cannot exist in the social environment and the state of the PC gaming industry is in today. There are no artificial roadblocks that you could put up that will not get bypassed fairly quickly. The average gamer (PC or console) doesn't have the time or patience for a grind where they are forced to devote hours of the day for a payoff that 'might' happen. The industry as a whole has moved on from what we think of as an MMORPG (WoW is a dinosaur in many respects where almost every competitor has moved on). I think of the scenario of if you had such a game like EQ (warts and all) exist today. First of all I know I personally would never be able to play it legit because I simply do not have the kind of disposable time that my gaming persona had 20 years ago. Then I think would my kids play it (since let's be honest that's who it has to be marketed to make any sort of money). The same kids who play stuff like Fortnite and Overwatch? The same daughter who spends an hour MAX on WoW because that's about as long as the attention span will go? Keep in mind this is a generation where chatting (typing) in a video game is foreign to them. I've always wondered if EQ would have the same social dynamic if you had people with mics instead of simply typing in the chat box.

Everquest was great for it's time. It was the right type of game in that specific time period with that era of PC technology. Trying to recreate that today is a fools errand.
 
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Ravishing

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Vandyn said:
Yea but how long ago was Vanguard? I firmly believe that a game like EQ cannot exist in the social environment and the state of the PC gaming industry is in today. There are no artificial roadblocks that you could put up that will not get bypassed fairly quickly. The average gamer (PC or console) doesn't have the time or patience for a grind where they are forced to devote hours of the day for a payoff that 'might' happen. The industry as a whole has moved on from what we think of as an MMORPG (WoW is a dinosaur in many respects where almost every competitor has moved on). I think of the scenario of if you had such a game like EQ (warts and all) exist today. First of all I know I personally would never be able to play it legit because I simply do not have the kind of disposable time that my gaming persona had 20 years ago. Then I think would my kids play it (since let's be honest that's who it has to be marketed to make any sort of money). The same kids who play stuff like Fortnite and Overwatch? The same daughter who spends an hour MAX on WoW because that's about as long as the attention span will go? Keep in mind this is a generation where chatting (typing) in a video game is foreign to them. I've always wondered if EQ would have the same social dynamic if you had people with mics instead of simply typing in the chat box.

Everquest was great for it's time. It was the right type of game in that specific time period with that era of PC technology. Trying to recreate that today is a fools errand.
Click to expand...

These points are very true. The grind and mundane tasks of EQ are not going to fly.
However, I can see a game in the future that does enforce Social aspects which keep people logging in.
EQ was largely a Social game. The grind just allowed you to do it easier.
EQ also had that socially competitive aspect to it which is mostly missing today.

Returning to a game that enforces social interaction and competition can be done.

I do believe an element of PvP would need to exist, such as a Realm v Realm or an EVE-type territory control, etc.
PvP turns a lot of MMO players off, but FortNite has found a way to make a very PvP oriented game into a casual-friendly experience.
The same would need to happen in this theoretical MMO.
People need to be part of a cohesive group, or alliance, to allow the shit talking to commence against enemy alliances, but don't force everyone into a PvP role. Allow contributions beyond that.
Maybe controlling territory or gaining favor for your realm is a way to access certain PvE content. GuildWars did something similar like this in GW1: Favor of the gods - Guild Wars Wiki (GWW)

In any case, I largely see EQ as a social game and stuff like camps & grinds are mostly obsolete, but aren't what made EQ magical anyway.
 
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Dandai

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The observation that EQ was like a proto-social network is the best explanation I think. The genie's out of the bottle. I'm sure there's room and market demand for a slower, more social MMO, but I'm less certain that the number of prospective players is large enough to justify the costs and overhead of an MMO.
 
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Flipmode

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I find that what turns more players off is allowing other players to hinder your progress. Contested mobs are one thing, but if people can’t kill the mobs they need to progress, then your game will not be successful. Allowing 1-2% of the server to essentially lock down all mobs of value is not just bad design, it’s a deal breaker for a lot of folks.

Stuff like epic quests, raid level quests, etc have to have some type of instancing. I’m not gonna wait 6 months to a year to kill 1 of 20 mobs I need for my epic weapon until UBER GUILD X decides to let the rest of the server have a shot. That’s dumb.
 
Fight

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Flipmode said:
Stuff like epic quests, raid level quests, etc have to have some type of instancing. I’m not gonna wait 6 months to a year to kill 1 of 20 mobs I need for my epic weapon until UBER GUILD X decides to let the rest of the server have a shot. That’s dumb.
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It is dumb, but it also kept the item inflation in check... for awhile anyways. It kept items desirable and special. The great thing about EQ was just how rare and difficult things like epic weapons were, but I always felt like I had some way or avenue to eventually get it done. Maybe that meant staying up really late, or taking some days off work, or making new friends or getting into a new guide. There were sacrifices you were going to have to make. It was realistic, just insanely hard.

With all these other games, it seems it is your "right" to have that item, once you reach a certain level.

It would be like if your dream were to be a millionaire. In our world, it is going to be difficult, but if you work hard enough you can probably figure a way to do it. In an alternate reality, where everyone gets a million dollars deposited into their account when they reach age 45, being a millionaire doesn't mean shit.
 
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Locnar

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I hope to the LORD that pantheon does not listen to the defeatists who claim old school EQ type game cannot be resurrected. Sure it will be a niche game, but so be it. Like I told these types for years: go play WoW (or insert 10000x other games).

Waiting for Brad to put his old but true and famous line on a hotbutton "maybe this is not the game for you".

IF players cannot hinder OTHER PLAYERS from progressing (via resource monopoly, pvp , whatever) than the progress is meaningless. Go play a single player game (or wow..)

We need brutal harshness. Grind + xp loss on death + corpse runs. From that element of true consequence and danger all else will spring. Interdependence and cooperation and COMMUNITY.
 
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Ravishing

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Flipmode said:
I find that what turns more players off is allowing other players to hinder your progress. Contested mobs are one thing, but if people can’t kill the mobs they need to progress, then your game will not be successful. Allowing 1-2% of the server to essentially lock down all mobs of value is not just bad design, it’s a deal breaker for a lot of folks.

Stuff like epic quests, raid level quests, etc have to have some type of instancing. I’m not gonna wait 6 months to a year to kill 1 of 20 mobs I need for my epic weapon until UBER GUILD X decides to let the rest of the server have a shot. That’s dumb.
Click to expand...
This entire post is what's wrong with current MMOs.

You shouldn't be entitled to every single weapon/item/area in the game.

Edit: Your definition of "progress" is flawed. Progress in an MMO is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has their own definition of progress. To some it's raid encounters, to others it's becoming a gazillionaire, to others it's acquiring a special item.

Also, future MMOs need a way to prevent 1-2% of the server from locking content, I agree wholeheartedly. In my perfect world there would be enough contested content to where this couldn't happen.
 
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Ambiturner

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Locnar said:
I don't agree because Vanguard BEFORE Silius dumbed it down actually gave me those old EQ feelings. The world was so big and leveling slow, that you got to know the group of people who happened to have traveled to the one of several level appropriate areas that you were in. You had the locals and usual suspects day after day up in Trengel Keep area, or what not. Also dungeon crawling worked and was immensely fulfilling.

It can be done so long as they stick to the fundamental truths of old school MMO design. They CANNOT panic and lessen the harshness, grind, punishment, whatever you want to call it because that is the foundation that everything else relies on and is build upon. Vangaurd both panicked and suffered from a few systems being incomplete (hello faction).
Click to expand...

Shocking that you got to know a playerbase in an MMO with 100s of subscribers
 
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Flipmode

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Ravishing said:
This entire post is what's wrong with current MMOs.

You shouldn't be entitled to every single weapon/item/area in the game.

Edit: Your definition of "progress" is flawed. Progress in an MMO is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has their own definition of progress. To some it's raid encounters, to others it's becoming a gazillionaire, to others it's acquiring a special item.

Also, future MMOs need a way to prevent 1-2% of the server from locking content, I agree wholeheartedly. In my perfect world there would be enough contested content to where this couldn't happen.
Click to expand...

Trying to conflate what I said with modern MMOs like wow is disingenuous. Players measure progression in different ways. My main MMO was EQ2. Contested mobs are fine and you are correct in that I am not entitled to any mobs loot.

Where you go wrong is suggesting that it is ok for one guild to completely lock out any other guilds or players and essentially deny content to them. That is not good game design. Period.

You can go a long way to preventing this with limited travel in game and having mobs spread out so no one guild can monopolize them all.

Being the first to kill a mob and monopolize its respawn isn’t good game design. You think it is.

And I should get to experience every area in a game I pay for. You can cut that horseshit argument out. We pay FOR content. Not to be LOCKED OUT. Unless you think the people hogging all the mobs in these games are the only ones with skill (they aren’t).
 
Ravishing

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Flipmode said:
Trying to conflate what I said with modern MMOs like wow is disingenuous. Players measure progression in different ways. My main MMO was EQ2. Contested mobs are fine and you are correct in that I am not entitled to any mobs loot.

Where you go wrong is suggesting that it is ok for one guild to completely lock out any other guilds or players and essentially deny content to them. That is not good game design. Period.

You can go a long way to preventing this with limited travel in game and having mobs spread out so no one guild can monopolize them all.

Being the first to kill a mob and monopolize its respawn isn’t good game design. You think it is.

And I should get to experience every area in a game I pay for. You can cut that horseshit argument out. We pay FOR content. Not to be LOCKED OUT. Unless you think the people hogging all the mobs in these games are the only ones with skill (they aren’t).
Click to expand...

1.) I never mentioned guilds in my theoretical MMO post. I mentioned Realms/Alliances. Larger groups of people working together, similar to EVE, DAOC, GuildWars 1, etc. Systems that "unlock" content for LARGE groups of people.. but not everyone.

2.) I never said monopolizing respawn was good design. It's a tricky problem for sure. I also hate instancing. I have said multiple times that emergent gameplay is the future. We also discussed procedural systems to help create content. I feel like the future MMO will enlist procedural techniques to create massive amounts of content that would be near impossible for a single guild to consume.

3.) Don't use the "I paid for!" excuse. This whole line of thinking is wrong, and also has changed a lot recently. Many games not even requiring payment anymore. Pricing schemes vary and it'd be silly to conflate game mechanics with pricing.
 
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