DOTA 2
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Delly
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I don't get the point in making so many large changes at one time. Maybe they internally tested this a ton, but wouldn't small changes with a couple large changes be wiser? Sure, its cool to change the whole meta in one patch, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to do it.
I guess this is typical of Icefrog and for the most part his past changes have been pretty good.
I guess this is typical of Icefrog and for the most part his past changes have been pretty good.
The cd on skywraith ult doesnt mean much its already 20s its the huge 800 mana thats the problem
Dandain
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Welcome to dota - this is why the game has evolved - but remained stable. If any of this shit just appears crazy broke we'll get the sub patches to fix bugs and adjust things. Keep in mind the skywrath / rubick aghs changes perhaps make them a hero you want to play mid again - support rubick is never gonna get to an aghs unless the team really prioritizes that (but fun for pubbing).
We'll see what floats to the top out of all this. Disruptor got some big buffs - his agh's is arguably more ridiculous than the rest. J
just because jungling / pulling / stacking saw some nerfs - doesn't mean the map control won't still be just as important from a stack pull etc effect. Part of the jungle nerf is to combat the insane stacking that pro teams have integrated into their play such that after 4/5 minutes some ae/waveclear heroes are just demoloshing 4 stacks of the hardest camps for very large advantages that are disproportionate to the time they occur in the game. The underlying mechanics that keep dota complex are still there, these changes will just manipulate the ways they are interacted with. Killing trilanes will never go out of style - its the defensive hyper jungle farm style that more or less remove the offlane from play that have seen the big changes.
We'll see what floats to the top out of all this. Disruptor got some big buffs - his agh's is arguably more ridiculous than the rest. J
just because jungling / pulling / stacking saw some nerfs - doesn't mean the map control won't still be just as important from a stack pull etc effect. Part of the jungle nerf is to combat the insane stacking that pro teams have integrated into their play such that after 4/5 minutes some ae/waveclear heroes are just demoloshing 4 stacks of the hardest camps for very large advantages that are disproportionate to the time they occur in the game. The underlying mechanics that keep dota complex are still there, these changes will just manipulate the ways they are interacted with. Killing trilanes will never go out of style - its the defensive hyper jungle farm style that more or less remove the offlane from play that have seen the big changes.
Nite1
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the tranquil boots change and the riki ulti change really bother me if only because it makes him harder to control in pub games especially with the change to sentry wards... also if i'm reading right the jungling nerf is exp only so i think their may have been some overreacting about that although as support stacking is going to be harder and jungling will be slightly slower when leveling but i don't see that as necessarily a bad thing... also don't understand the shadowblade nerf did it really need changed?
Dandain
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I think the main thing that that it creates for skywraith is an interesting combination with other heroes on the team that have specific lockdown - chain stun into double ult can be pretty potent. He himself doesn't have the full utility to land two ults - and it does make him have a much better teamfight presence late game. If he misses with his ult he does damage so slowly late game. This way there is also a little margin for error and the possibility that he remains late game relevant.
It would be hilarious to have skywrath and OD on a team just to see how many ults he could jizz out before he goes oom. Though to be honest 2-3 ults is enough to kill pretty much anything if you can land them.
Dandain
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Tranquil boots are stupidly bad while fighting - giving them a slightly better broken movement speed is good.
*Non-Ancient Neutrals now split XP with all heroes in the AoE instead of just the team that killed them
* Swapped the medium pullable Neutral Camp with the small camp
* Satyr Mindstealer XP bounty reduced from 88 to 62
* Satyr Tormentor XP bounty reduced from 155 to 119
* Mud Golems XP bounty reduced from 119 to 88
* Mud Golems armor reduced from 4 to 2
The other change to the jungle is that the easiest camp is becoming the pull camp. Which means a double stack of that camp probably won't straight up deny waves as easily if at all. Additionally if you move into the range and contest the pulled camp you should also get exp off jungle monsters - think of a jungle monster as being an enemy creep (but its an enemy creep for both teams) Assuming I've interpreted this line correctly - if you go stand near the neutrals why they are denying your wave you'll get shared xp from the jungle monsters themselves (this works for all main jungle camps but not the ancients) This also begs the question on how it will affect teams that chose junglers that want to start on the small camp at 30 sec and 1 minute spawns. You might get a set of mud golems or centaurs at the "new" small camp. And that might be unkillable given the hero or at least efficiency prohibative. The new easy camp location now has two sets of spawns with reduced xp bounty as well. Only the centaur and triple ogre remain untouched and those pulls I think do more damage or are harder to kill than the mud/satyr. Its also a choice - you can't exactly split a double stack creep wave pull with your jungle and a safelane trilane. Jungle monster xp divided by 2-3 allied heroes and possible enemy heroes getting into range.
* A neutral creeps camp will no longer spawn the same set of neutral creeps twice in a row
* Dragon Ancient Neutral Camp now have flying movement capability
This also breaks the clever ways that medusa / windrunner (funnik) were doing ancients - the dragons will now fly across the gap instead of pathing through the trees - the change that disabled back to back spawning of the same creep camp takes more variability out of that strat - i.e if you spawned 4 sets of golems in a row it works - but if you spawn dragons it doesn't. The first change almost guarantees you'll see dragons in 3 stacks or less. most of the time.
Shadow Blade
* Shadow Walk cooldown increased from 18 to 28
The shadowblade change has more subtle effects - but a very simple one is that it makes shadowblade and teleport (NP) have desynced timers - there is at least an 8 second window where prophet doesn't have shadowblade to escape if he just raw teleports into another lane after being driven from the one he was pushing. That 8 seconds will slow down the push and the safety of it - and heroes on that side of the map can potentially net a kill without an invis item.
Sentry Ward
- Duration increased from 3 to 4 minutes
- No longer gives permanent vision around it
- Gives ground vision in a 150 area around it for 12 seconds when placed
The sentry ward change as far as I read it is that the ward itself will provide no natural vision after the first 12 seconds - the reason this change is good is that with clever position of sentries they were providing far more map control/vision than their tiny little radius implied. For example - on radiant middle - a sentry ward on that small gap of ground where toplane would come into gank under smoke would detect the smoke because the wards innate small vision is wide enough to cover that small strip of land - another place would be the roshan stairs to the dire ancients. There are many more locations like this - but you could combine sentry use with ward use - and have a great deal more map vision and safety. But now Your team must provide creeps - a ward or your hero to extend vision around the ward to take advantage of its vision - the +1 minute makes them cheaper to use against heroes in lane like riki that you mentioned. The sentry change affects smoke ganks in pro games a lot more than it affects pub games. You could still place a sentry for example on the dire hilltop just outside toplane rax that regularly gets warded and deward without needing an additional vision source (but that window is only 12 seconds now instead of the duration of the ward)
Nite1
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I meant that you can't dissasemble them any more was nice to grab them for laning then turn them into something else... was something i liked doing with lycan and some other melee carries
as to the jungling then if i'm reading what you said right a. i need to learn pull throughs for stacking etc and for the competitive scene that now means you have to prioritise keeping their offlaner out of the jungle. I feel like in the competitive scene that'll make the offlane more fun to watch then the old defensive tri-lanes were?
as to the jungling then if i'm reading what you said right a. i need to learn pull throughs for stacking etc and for the competitive scene that now means you have to prioritise keeping their offlaner out of the jungle. I feel like in the competitive scene that'll make the offlane more fun to watch then the old defensive tri-lanes were?
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Yeah, just had to go see if it would work like that... And it definitely does work like this! And if you Blink without attacking you stay invis too.
Dandain
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So Defensive trilanes work in pro dota because a few very specific criteria. Those are that every single creepwave will be denied in the ideal planned scenario - a friendly creep will never approach the enemy tower. And additionally, the two trilane supports will stack pull and farm the available jungle camps to the extreme of efficiency. This includes stacking 2 or 3 camps per wave to prep them to be mass ae'd down by certain heros on the teamcomp as level benchmarks get met (3/5) etc power spikes. Its quite insane. It basically dictated the meta as soon as the efficiency increased enough for closer to the maximum gold being extracted from the jungle by the two supports. This is why an offensive trilane has to win early because if you lose the offensive trilane you've gambled all your jungle efficiency for disrupting their jungle efficiency as well as straight up losing the lane. As soon as the offensive trilane loses the enemy jungle goes into full production mode. And there is still transition time to the top.
So with that said the new jungle does a few things - first it makes the initial deny camp the weakest camp in the jungle a double stack might not even kill 4 starting creeps and survive. Without creeps in that first camp - the chain pulling to the other camps slows way down (the pulling that you link camps together - for radiant you cut those trees down) So now more experience is going to hit the enemy tower - the offlaner will be in a safe position - and the first creep wave is also colliding closer to the enemy side of the equilibrium. I think this means that the offlaner will be able to get probably 2-4 of the first 5-6 creepwaves almost guaranteed. This make offlaners that can't do anything to change the wave position, have an escape skill (surge), potentially more viable.
We should see defensive trilane effectiveness diminished in both the gold and experience it gathers and the gold and experience it denies to the enemy offlane. Taking its clamp off the meta - it should re open oddball 2/1/1/1 2/2/1 or 2/1/2 type lanes. Picking a killing offensive trilane is also more powerful because there is less potential control that the defensive side can exert on the lane positioning. I.E. the further away from the allied tower the defensive trilane becomes the safer the enemy team becomes and the more effective their ganks - You've just got more distance to chase disrupt and deal the damage you need to get kills.
I like a lot of the changes.
- Nerfs to buybacks and kill streaks are going to help encourage comebacks. If someone goes Godlike and you kill him, you're looking at 1400+ gold for the last hitter, plus assist gold. More passive income will also help out a team that is boxed in, though I worry if this is making it too much like Easy Mode.
- Nerfs to pulling and the distribution of neutral XP bounties are going to make defensive trilanes more of an actual strategy, rather than an every game base-line. 2-1-2 has always been more exciting in my experience as a player, anyways. More of a man-to-man situation like mid where you can win your lane by simply outplaying your opponent. It will also make the laning characteristics of your hero choices actually important, since you can't simply assume you will win one lane and lose the other. One thing I worry about, though, is the fact that 2-1-2 really discourages early game roaming. The two supports are split between the lanes and it is completely obvious when one of them disappears. In a trilane, they could simply be pulling so an MIA call didn't exactly mean that they were coming to gank you.
- Seems like there will be an actual choice on what Barracks to attack now. If you think you can get a full kill, its best to go for the Melee, but if you just want to chip away, the ranged rax should be the target.
- The buffs to Axe are nice, but with the attendant nerfs it seems like he is going to continue to be irrelevant.
- Bloodseeker looks to be in lolcentaur/loldrow territory now. I expect nerfs back to reasonableness in the forthcoming patches.
- Disappointed about no real nerfs to Furion, though I guess the forest changes kind of qualify. Lone Druid even got a buff. Is Bulldog bribing IceFrog? More at 11.
- Nerfs to buybacks and kill streaks are going to help encourage comebacks. If someone goes Godlike and you kill him, you're looking at 1400+ gold for the last hitter, plus assist gold. More passive income will also help out a team that is boxed in, though I worry if this is making it too much like Easy Mode.
- Nerfs to pulling and the distribution of neutral XP bounties are going to make defensive trilanes more of an actual strategy, rather than an every game base-line. 2-1-2 has always been more exciting in my experience as a player, anyways. More of a man-to-man situation like mid where you can win your lane by simply outplaying your opponent. It will also make the laning characteristics of your hero choices actually important, since you can't simply assume you will win one lane and lose the other. One thing I worry about, though, is the fact that 2-1-2 really discourages early game roaming. The two supports are split between the lanes and it is completely obvious when one of them disappears. In a trilane, they could simply be pulling so an MIA call didn't exactly mean that they were coming to gank you.
- Seems like there will be an actual choice on what Barracks to attack now. If you think you can get a full kill, its best to go for the Melee, but if you just want to chip away, the ranged rax should be the target.
- The buffs to Axe are nice, but with the attendant nerfs it seems like he is going to continue to be irrelevant.
- Bloodseeker looks to be in lolcentaur/loldrow territory now. I expect nerfs back to reasonableness in the forthcoming patches.
- Disappointed about no real nerfs to Furion, though I guess the forest changes kind of qualify. Lone Druid even got a buff. Is Bulldog bribing IceFrog? More at 11.
was posted last page. You've become slow with dota withdrawal accordion.
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Damn that's a lot of interesting changes. I really like the Maelstrom/Mjolnir change, 900aoe on chain lightning is HUGE and means it will actually work in teamfights instead of most of the time only doing damage to one person.
Will take some time to get used to some of the changes though, like how day/night is shorter now and how wards last one more minute. That messes up all the usual timing stuff. Kinda puts the first real viable gank between 7 and 8minutes, since it's still night time and the first set of ward has expire, vs currently 6mins(so quite a bit earlier). Also can't buy flying courier until 3mins, that's weird for me as a support, plus changes to the pricing of regen but also additional starting gold, and apparently pulling getting pretty heavily nerfed if you don't double pull since from what I understand the pull camp is now the small camp(shit xp/gold and probably won't kill a single lane creep so terrible for lane control too).
A bit surprised Abaddon is getting nerfed straight up though, I haven't been following the scene too much but I don't see him all that often. In comparison ET loses only 20dmg on his nuke, but Abaddon loses both 1armor and takes 25more dmg per death coil(which is a lot). Interested to see how the pudge blink balance thing will work out, if you can hook friendlies to give them terrain pathing so they can go in weird places and shit like that. Also that Broodmother change, DAMN. I do hope they fix the dota2 map so you can't go outside at some point though, since that'll be broken as shit like when you try to gank Batrider and he just goes loloutofmap.
Anyway tons of changes will have to test shit. The Agh for Rubick and Skywrath look a lot better than they'll probably be until really lategame. If you rush an agh on rubick, you won't have the mana to use most of the shit you'll end up stealing unless you keep getting cheap spells. You'll need arcane and probably one more item like a eul to actually make use of the agh low cd, but god once you can this shit is gonna be crazy invoker level. Hope it means people consider playing Rubick mid again.
Bloodseeker looks fairly dumb, but then again Bloodseeker has been shit forever. It'd be nice to see him dominating for a bit. Might want to consider adding diminishing stacking on the buff though.
Will take some time to get used to some of the changes though, like how day/night is shorter now and how wards last one more minute. That messes up all the usual timing stuff. Kinda puts the first real viable gank between 7 and 8minutes, since it's still night time and the first set of ward has expire, vs currently 6mins(so quite a bit earlier). Also can't buy flying courier until 3mins, that's weird for me as a support, plus changes to the pricing of regen but also additional starting gold, and apparently pulling getting pretty heavily nerfed if you don't double pull since from what I understand the pull camp is now the small camp(shit xp/gold and probably won't kill a single lane creep so terrible for lane control too).
A bit surprised Abaddon is getting nerfed straight up though, I haven't been following the scene too much but I don't see him all that often. In comparison ET loses only 20dmg on his nuke, but Abaddon loses both 1armor and takes 25more dmg per death coil(which is a lot). Interested to see how the pudge blink balance thing will work out, if you can hook friendlies to give them terrain pathing so they can go in weird places and shit like that. Also that Broodmother change, DAMN. I do hope they fix the dota2 map so you can't go outside at some point though, since that'll be broken as shit like when you try to gank Batrider and he just goes loloutofmap.
Anyway tons of changes will have to test shit. The Agh for Rubick and Skywrath look a lot better than they'll probably be until really lategame. If you rush an agh on rubick, you won't have the mana to use most of the shit you'll end up stealing unless you keep getting cheap spells. You'll need arcane and probably one more item like a eul to actually make use of the agh low cd, but god once you can this shit is gonna be crazy invoker level. Hope it means people consider playing Rubick mid again.
Bloodseeker looks fairly dumb, but then again Bloodseeker has been shit forever. It'd be nice to see him dominating for a bit. Might want to consider adding diminishing stacking on the buff though.
Nirgon
YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE
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I personally dig the invoker changes.. having full combos much earlier is gonna be tite as fuk.
And by full combo I mean 2 ready, invoke another during the combo
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As others have noted in the thread, there could be a "quick" (a month maybe?) patch to nail down anything crazy that went in... or wasn't enough of a buff.
Great time to get in there with some old faves.
And by full combo I mean 2 ready, invoke another during the combo
.As others have noted in the thread, there could be a "quick" (a month maybe?) patch to nail down anything crazy that went in... or wasn't enough of a buff.
Great time to get in there with some old faves.