Got around the reading the changes. Sounds interesting. Will completely shake up the meta of how the game is actually played. Pulling is nerfed, jungling is nerfed, "OP" heroes nerfed ... just changes all around. I'll be interested to see how it plays out. Will tri-lane still be the only way to play at the competitive level anymore w/o pulling and jungle XP nerfed?
DOTA 2
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You can still pull, it's just complete shit if you don't pull a hard camp into it, making it easier to disrupt the pulls, and well obviously you get a lot less xp/gold for pulling now. But you were getting too much before, assuming you did it perfectly(which funny enough most pro player never bothered doing even in freefarm lanes), you could get lvl 6 in under 7mins just doing pulls with the right timing, which is basically almost solo lane xp. Now it's probably not going to be worth it over leeching in a dual or even a trilane, but you still free xp for your carry and you control the lane/deny xp/gold from the enemy. Might see some changes though it's hard to tell at this point.
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I wonder why, that's how it works in dota1 too. You need to be very lucky to get dragon spawns consecutively to be able to farm and at least the flying dragons prevent a lot of other shenanigans.
Zaphid
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I'm pretty sure that was the first thing people thought about, the return of the offlane beastmaster ... Strange, that would be the first thing I would check if I was making the patch, so I thought they didn't consider it an issue.
It's also interesting that they buffed the range of ES fissure, I think we will see a lot more denying of creeps with that, even though it's considered a bit "cheap".
It's also interesting that they buffed the range of ES fissure, I think we will see a lot more denying of creeps with that, even though it's considered a bit "cheap".
I love the roshan change the most!
A random timer of 8-11 minute totally indirectly fucks over NP as well and makes the games less rosh-centric!
There's a lot of changes that indirectly fuck over NP/bh/clockwerk (less relaince on jungle exp and thus NP becomes less powerful since he has such an easy time blocking the pulls, neutral exp is split up between those in aoe range which fucks over BH's last hitting stealing). It's needed given how popular they are as offlaners.
A random timer of 8-11 minute totally indirectly fucks over NP as well and makes the games less rosh-centric!
There's a lot of changes that indirectly fuck over NP/bh/clockwerk (less relaince on jungle exp and thus NP becomes less powerful since he has such an easy time blocking the pulls, neutral exp is split up between those in aoe range which fucks over BH's last hitting stealing). It's needed given how popular they are as offlaners.
* Creeps now meet a bit closer to the tower in your offlane
So you will most likely get lvl 2 off the first wave without being contested if you body block it well which was hard to do before vs a trilane cause they could flank you on both sides of the map.
* Ranged Heroes now get the same denied experience as melee heroes (instead of less)
More xp for offlane ranged heroes.
* XP AoE increased from 1200 to 1300
Easier to be in range to lvl faster.
* Non-Ancient Neutrals now split XP with all heroes in the AoE instead of just the team that killed them
If you are sent out of lane and they manage to stack pull the tiny new camp there, you will get as much xp out of it agin getting lvls faster.
* Day/Night length decreased from 6 to 4 minutes
This goes both ways, offlaner can be flanked more effectively starting at 4 mins, but he can also hide better to stay in xp range to get lvl 6 faster.
Couple that to the fact they cant completely pull deny you xp/gold like before and the lane will eventualy push into ur tower for free creeps.
its good to be an offlaner in 6.79.
So you will most likely get lvl 2 off the first wave without being contested if you body block it well which was hard to do before vs a trilane cause they could flank you on both sides of the map.
* Ranged Heroes now get the same denied experience as melee heroes (instead of less)
More xp for offlane ranged heroes.
* XP AoE increased from 1200 to 1300
Easier to be in range to lvl faster.
* Non-Ancient Neutrals now split XP with all heroes in the AoE instead of just the team that killed them
If you are sent out of lane and they manage to stack pull the tiny new camp there, you will get as much xp out of it agin getting lvls faster.
* Day/Night length decreased from 6 to 4 minutes
This goes both ways, offlaner can be flanked more effectively starting at 4 mins, but he can also hide better to stay in xp range to get lvl 6 faster.
Couple that to the fact they cant completely pull deny you xp/gold like before and the lane will eventualy push into ur tower for free creeps.
its good to be an offlaner in 6.79.
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You can completely pull deny, as long as it's a trilane and one of the supports can keep you away from the neutrals killing the creeps. Granted it's a lot harder now than it was before since you don't have to last hit the creeps anymore so you simply need to be in the xp range which is very large, but still it's doable if the lane is very scary, as you can still easily double pull neutrals which entirely kill a creep wave, even with the shitty easy camp.
Anyway yeah it's easier, but I think we'll just see a shift into agressive/pushing trilanes instead, as these don't care as much about controlling creeps. One hero that could still do fine on defensive trilanes is lich though. The sacrifice change is a huge buff to him and you can still 100%deny xp by simply sacrificing mobs before they're close to the enemy, which also provides 100% of the xp for lich(or shared with his support) and with one less creep per wave, the lane is never going to be pushing into the enemy tower. Mind you, Lich offlane is even stronger too, since you can get guaranteed xp everytime you sacrifice and the rest of the changes also help him. Boots first lich offlane is easy offlane in 6.79.
Edit: On lich's note, checked out how lich works right now, assuming you can deny without anyone else in range, you can hit lvl 6 at 4mins... Pretty cool stuff. You hit lvl 2 on the offlane after 2-3waves depending on what you can get from the enemy wave, but if they're not messing with it and chasing you away, you basically hit lvl 2 on the first enemy wave.
Anyway yeah it's easier, but I think we'll just see a shift into agressive/pushing trilanes instead, as these don't care as much about controlling creeps. One hero that could still do fine on defensive trilanes is lich though. The sacrifice change is a huge buff to him and you can still 100%deny xp by simply sacrificing mobs before they're close to the enemy, which also provides 100% of the xp for lich(or shared with his support) and with one less creep per wave, the lane is never going to be pushing into the enemy tower. Mind you, Lich offlane is even stronger too, since you can get guaranteed xp everytime you sacrifice and the rest of the changes also help him. Boots first lich offlane is easy offlane in 6.79.
Edit: On lich's note, checked out how lich works right now, assuming you can deny without anyone else in range, you can hit lvl 6 at 4mins... Pretty cool stuff. You hit lvl 2 on the offlane after 2-3waves depending on what you can get from the enemy wave, but if they're not messing with it and chasing you away, you basically hit lvl 2 on the first enemy wave.
Are you guys still running in houses? I'm a pretty mid-level player, but I'm looking to get better, and solo queuing is making me a sad panda.
Sutekh
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I only play with the best of the best on the forums. I can't stand scrubs.
If you can't beat this Witch Doctors contributions you don't belong in my group.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/351609370
If you can't beat this Witch Doctors contributions you don't belong in my group.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/351609370
They'R changing the pull camp to be the tiny creeps, stacking 2 of them will not kill off a wave.
Why you hating on the diving witch doctor that had a homing beacon on his back from a farmed dagon nyx
It wasnt as bad as this crappy crystal maiden:http://dotabuff.com/matches/328760861
Zaphid
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Put on your pro hat and learn how to pull double camps, easy on radiant, dire needs a bit more practice and can be more easily disrupted tho.
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Yeah like Zaphid is saying, I wasn't talking about stacking at all, even though 2 small camps should be able to kill one creep wave, barely, depends on how the targetting goes and what type of creeps you have(healing priest for example is pretty bad ass and so is the slowing ghost if it's not targetted by the creeps right away). But you should be double pulling to a hard camp. As I said though it's harder to deny xp since for example you can be sitting down the river behind the pull(on both dire and radiant but on dire side you can just stand at your tower for even more safety) and still get some xp, mind you only the neutrals xp(which is lower in 6.79 for most packs) and it's split between you and the 2 enemy supports so it's fairly weak. Assuming you're being sufficently zoned though it's entirely doable still. The first camp doesn't really matter and didn't really matter before, stacking was less efficient than double pulling in terms of xp/gold gained so it wasn't how you should have been doing pulls.
As I just pointed out however, the change to shared xp thing only works on neutrals, not lane creeps, so if the enemy denies a full creep wave with a double pull, even if you can leech a hard camp xp split between 3 people, that's still way way way less than what you'd get from not pulling. Better than 0, but still fairly bad. The change to the meeting point of the creeps is more important imo, especially the way it was terribly implemented, since the easy lane creeps get a fairly big movespeed buff for a short duration instead of a constant movespeed buff or a delayed spawn time, which means they're fairly hard to block properly(they move at like 400movespeed or some shit) while it's very easy to block the hard lane creeps, so the first wave will tend to be within tower range if you block it even if the enemy tries to block, and that guarantees a good sum of xp.
So basicaly you are confirming my point that being an offlaner is much easier than it was before. As for the whole pro hat pull the hard camp thing, the timing for pulling was brought down and is more punishing than before. Not sure what i means, but I imagine it means the mobs will leech faster than before making the pull window smaller. That means getting that pull will be a lot more difficult than it already is, and in most cases is very easy to disrupt.
You guys are acting as if next patch offlaners are gonna have a harder time. It's like you've never played an offlaner, to be its gonna be a paradise on bh/clinkz/np/druid/clock .... etc you name it.
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I had already agreed with your point that offlane was easier, I simply argued on the fact you said you couldn't deny xp anymore, which you can still and will still do. The timing is the same as far as I can tell, I only did a few pulls to see how it was working and the main difference is the initial pull has to happen earlier(since the creeps move faster), but the double pull didn't feel any different and was in fact easier since the easy camp is much easier to nuke down once you're done pulling the hard camp, so it's less likely you're gonna mess it up.
Never acted like it was going to be any harder, was just correcting something you said that was wrong which makes it harder than what you expected in your initial description, but still easier than it is now due to the other changes.