DOTA 2

Dandain

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The max mirana arrow stun only takes like 1500 range to reach 5 seconds I thought. The arrow nerf only affects arrows fired in this new .1-.5second range. Which is 150 range? It prevents being able to pointblank stun and follow it up with a double starfall and slightly lowers the arrow burst. I'd hardly say that's a huge nerf. The case it adjusts while not fringe is not where her overall hero power lies.
 

Zaphid

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So, yeah, with the prizepool at 8.4M now, I think it's pretty obvious that we will crack the 10M barrier by the time the live event rolls around. That's almost as much as all of prize money of all tournaments in SC2 ...
 

Tenks

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SC2 came out just a bit too soon. It is pretty obvious to be a successful and prosperous e-sport you simply have to use the F2P model. You need to have a player base of millions upon millions logging in every day. SC2 also lacking a reason to lose (such as cosmetics, in-game gold shop, etc...) makes it hard for people to log in and play. It is win or go home. You lose you lose points. You win you gain points. It is too black and white and leads to anxiety of playing.
 

faille

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is competitive SC2 team based also? Seems like the 5v5 in Dota allows for not just individual skill, but teamwork and coordination. Seems to elevate it to the same level as physical sports where there are always debates about champion teams v teams of champions.
 

Tenks

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There are occasionally 2v2 matches in competitive SC2 but it is mostly just a novelty. It almost entirely revolves around 1v1 play. The big Korean Brood Wars league had 2v2 games for a while but eventually stopped doing it since it was too hard to keep up with four players at once.

I've also thought about if it is the team aspect or not that makes MOBAs seem to be more popular in terms of viewership. It is no coincidence the most watched sports are team sports as well. But that doesn't mean there isn't room for individual sports as well. Golf and tennis come to mind as two very large individual sports. I, personally, always gravitated towards individual sports as a kid so it is no wonder I prefer SC2 over DOTA2. I believe there is room for both. But DOTA2 just has a far easier barrier of casual viewer entry and it's F2P model makes it so you can try the game out with just clicking a download button. Not shelling out $60. Also, I don't think you can just sit down and watch a SC2 game because most of what happens that is meaningful occurs outside of the battles. Which isn't to say DOTA2 doesn't have that as well. But in SC2 literally 75%+ of the game is how you manage yourself outside of battles.
 

Zaphid

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SC2 came out just a bit too soon. It is pretty obvious to be a successful and prosperous e-sport you simply have to use the F2P model. You need to have a player base of millions upon millions logging in every day. SC2 also lacking a reason to lose (such as cosmetics, in-game gold shop, etc...) makes it hard for people to log in and play. It is win or go home. You lose you lose points. You win you gain points. It is too black and white and leads to anxiety of playing.
SC2 basically told everybody that esport is a market worth designing a game for, that game and streaming created the whole esport revolution you see now. BW was the nerdy guy in the room refusing to leave, LoL didn't crash and burn to the surprise of 99% of the industry figures, CS was the game everybody used to play, but not anymore, Quake Live still had faint pulse and CoD 4 got smothered by the fact they releases a new version every year and MLGs had most games on consoles. I still think it's the most worthy esport game out right now, simply because of how fucking hard it is to play well and I think Blizzard was fine with people not grinding ladder every day, but they screwed the pooch with the arcade, which is a ghost town these days.

I guess they will come out with some kind of F2P model for LotV, but I have no idea what it could be, possibly to integrate it into the blizzard launcher and if your account has certain value, you can play 1v1 ladder for free ? Because of the nature of the game, cheating is both easy and extremely significant. At the end of the day, they might just let it be and release SP mission packs every few months or something, because why screw with something that works ?

Or we will get crate drops and skins for every unit.
 

Tenks

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SC2 basically told everybody that esport is a market worth designing a game for, that game and streaming created the whole esport revolution you see now. BW was the nerdy guy in the room refusing to leave, LoL didn't crash and burn to the surprise of 99% of the industry figures, CS was the game everybody used to play, but not anymore, Quake Live still had faint pulse and CoD 4 got smothered by the fact they releases a new version every year and MLGs had most games on consoles. I still think it's the most worthy esport game out right now, simply because of how fucking hard it is to play well and I think Blizzard was fine with people not grinding ladder every day, but they screwed the pooch with the arcade, which is a ghost town these days.

I guess they will come out with some kind of F2P model for LotV, but I have no idea what it could be, possibly to integrate it into the blizzard launcher and if your account has certain value, you can play 1v1 ladder for free ? Because of the nature of the game, cheating is both easy and extremely significant. At the end of the day, they might just let it be and release SP mission packs every few months or something, because why screw with something that works ?

Or we will get crate drops and skins for every unit.
They have the basic framework for adding skins to units it is just completely not used. I'd say let the entire ladder be open and free. Only put the single player behind a pay wall. Add in a system very much akin to DOTA2 where you make money off basically everything else. Add a premium UI, premium load screens, premium buttons on the UI, unit models, decals, voice packs, player avatars ... basically everything is for sale. Make all the content additions such as expansions free to everyone. Blizzard is a smart company so I'm sure they've thought of all this and I'm sure converting the game it is written now over to being F2P wouldn't be a trivial task.

However another positive side effect is if SC2 makes Blizzard money every day they could afford to keep a larger staff and stronger anti-cheat measures.

Another idea may be a bit too "pay2win" but consider a system not unlike LoL where you could socket bonuses. Like if I'm Terran. I can socket +20% Medivac speed, +5 marine health and +10% faster upgrade times. Stuff like that. Something that could breathe life into the metagame.
 

Zaphid

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The game is terribly simple to allow that without significant backlash - even right now it's much harder to guess the number of the reskinned lings at a glance due to the speed at which the game is played. Buildings could work, simply because they usually don't have an active role. You are also messing with the single thing SC2 has going for it - relatively easy to pick up what is going on. When you change how stuff looks from game to game, that makes it a lot more confusing. You also have hard time showing off your purchase, something MOBAs do really well - 9 more people see your hero and you share announcers and UIs in Dota. You are showing that sweet new unit to one other guy but both of you are too busy playing the game to see how well it looks.

One thing they could do is to figure out how to make team games a bit more fun, possibly come out with new modes or something, I thought the Blizzard dota was a way to breathe some new life in, but they decided to make it a full fledged game instead, possibly for the better.
 

Dandain

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I think a key difference is being missed. Controlling a pure RTS game like Starcraft is very hard. Its extremely stressful to play the base game, there is never any down time in any SC game. You are macro'ing rallying expanding, scouting, microing, dropping. The level of minimap control that SC asks you to accomplish in addition to all the hotkeys, control groups, special abilities. You're talking about a level of multitasking that doesn't exist in other genre's. A ton of people do not want to play a 1v1 game, it stresses them the fuck out. Additionally you can't casually play SC2 with your friends in a 1v1 setting because skill difference will blow the whole thing up. You can queue with any skill friend in dota - and while the games might be wonky, Everyone can still have fun. Starcraft is a great game, its a great esport, but even at the lowest level of skill it is far from casual. Dota and LoL are just controling 1 unit in an RTS world with an inventory. Casual players can enjoy Dota/LoL much like people enjoy recreational team sports leagues. Cooperative gameplay is a huge asset. We play nightly in stacks of players in Dota with varied skill and have a good time, translate those same people into Starcraft and there is very little for us to do cooperatively because 2v2/3v3/4v4 are pretty weak game modes in terms of how Starcraft is designed. People complain about the mechanical control required to last hit, and its nothing compared to SC.

Needless to say that's not suggesting Dota is a simpler game, but because at the end of the day it is just complex in other regions (teamplay, managing the map, etc). But Moba's hit a magical spot where the fun factor manages to exist in the trash tier and the god tier. There is a reason War3 had so many people on Bnet, and it wasn't the RTS game behind the magic it was dota, and tower defense. SCII has no such supportive killer apps.
 

Tenks

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I think a key difference is being missed. Controlling a pure RTS game like Starcraft is very hard. Its extremely stressful to play the base game, there is never any down time in any SC game. You are macro'ing rallying expanding, scouting, microing, dropping. The level of minimap control that SC asks you to accomplish in addition to all the hotkeys, control groups, special abilities. You're talking about a level of multitasking that doesn't exist in other genre's. A ton of people do not want to play a 1v1 game, it stresses them the fuck out. Additionally you can't casually play SC2 with your friends in a 1v1 setting because skill difference will blow the whole thing up. You can queue with any skill friend in dota - and while the games might be wonky, Everyone can still have fun. Starcraft is a great game, its a great esport, but even at the lowest level of skill it is far from casual. Dota and LoL are just controling 1 unit in an RTS world with an inventory. Casual players can enjoy Dota/LoL much like people enjoy recreational team sports leagues. Cooperative gameplay is a huge asset. We play nightly in stacks of players in Dota with varied skill and have a good time, translate those same people into Starcraft and there is very little for us to do cooperatively because 2v2/3v3/4v4 are pretty weak game modes in terms of how Starcraft is designed. People complain about the mechanical control required to last hit, and its nothing compared to SC.

Needless to say that's not suggesting Dota is a simpler game, but because at the end of the day it is just complex in other regions (teamplay, managing the map, etc). But Moba's hit a magical spot where the fun factor manages to exist in the trash tier and the god tier. There is a reason War3 had so many people on Bnet, and it wasn't the RTS game behind the magic it was dota, and tower defense. SCII has no such supportive killer apps.
Many of your arguments, which are valid, revolve around the social aspect of MOBA vs RTS. Personally I hate the social aspect of MOBA. It is the part that turns me off the most. Additionally I have zero IRL friends that play competitive games. So that is out from the get go. I can understand playing with long time online friends which a MOBA/A-RTS fills that role. But I can also understand just playing a game in a bubble and possibly joining an online community. And SC2/RTS can fill that role. Many eSport people tend to have this notion there is only room for one game. Which the prosperity of DOTA and LoL even indicates there is room even for two very similar games. Probably because there is very little crossover. People have "their game" they watch and don't tend to straddle multiple titles.
 

Cybsled

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In my experience, MOBA pubs are more forgiving than RTS in terms of skill. A lower skill player can still use certain spells and be useful. In a RTS, their only use is cannon-fodder/a distraction while the good players try to get up and running asap.
 

Dandain

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Many of your arguments, which are valid, revolve around the social aspect of MOBA vs RTS. Personally I hate the social aspect of MOBA. It is the part that turns me off the most. Additionally I have zero IRL friends that play competitive games. So that is out from the get go. I can understand playing with long time online friends which a MOBA/A-RTS fills that role. But I can also understand just playing a game in a bubble and possibly joining an online community. And SC2/RTS can fill that role. Many eSport people tend to have this notion there is only room for one game. Which the prosperity of DOTA and LoL even indicates there is room even for two very similar games. Probably because there is very little crossover. People have "their game" they watch and don't tend to straddle multiple titles.
A couple things in my post you did miss. First, Starcraft is a much more mechanically demanding game. That really is a truth without debate. While Moba's have no small cap on exploitable APM, there is a definitive limit where the commands would be excessive. Certainly a Pro Dota player has moments where his hand speed is 2-300 APM at the pro level. But it is not a condition that must be sustained from minute 1 until the end of game. Which in Starcraft you could easily make the case that as the game goes on the difficulty level continues to skyrocket in the context of Mechanical APM.

It does take a certain type of person to thrive in a 1v1 competitive environment. Sure you can casually play tennis, but at that point its just to knock the ball around - and not actually keep score. Team sports have a great deal more room for casual players and teams of all skill. I think competitive hardcore 1v1 people are more rare socially. Because I too have zero real life buddies who play any competitive games. FPS, RTS, MOBA, Fighting. Nada.
 

Zaphid

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A couple things in my post you did miss. First, Starcraft is a much more mechanically demanding game. That really is a truth without debate. While Moba's have no small cap on exploitable APM, there is a definitive limit where the commands would be excessive. Certainly a Pro Dota player has moments where his hand speed is 2-300 APM at the pro level. But it is not a condition that must be sustained from minute 1 until the end of game. Which in Starcraft you could easily make the case that as the game goes on the difficulty level continues to skyrocket in the context of Mechanical APM.

It does take a certain type of person to thrive in a 1v1 competitive environment. Sure you can casually play tennis, but at that point its just to knock the ball around - and not actually keep score. Team sports have a great deal more room for casual players and teams of all skill. I think competitive hardcore 1v1 people are more rare socially. Because I too have zero real life buddies who play any competitive games. FPS, RTS, MOBA, Fighting. Nada.
Personally, I stopped playing SC2 unless I have like 2 weeks of time where I can devote several hours daily to it, because otherwise I just get frustrated by my own incompetence. While I have a certain degree of ladder anxiety, it tends to go away the more I play. There's no better high than when you win a really close 1v1 match, because you know it was your skill that got you the win. It's also a great training for so many other games. I can laugh at people who tell me microing Visage familiars is hard, Enchantress is difficult and Chen is straight up unplayable.

There's a precedent for starcraft in BW that 1v1 is simply too hostile to casuals, but I'm not sure if they should bend over backwards to make it casual friendly. There's a certain awe in watching pros do stuff you can only dream about. Or sit down and start grinding games. Team games are obvious weakness, if they could make something like starcraf-lite ala monobattles, maybe they could be much more fun.

As far as social aspects go, rerolled are the only people I play dota with, so most of my time is spent in solo queue. I'm not sure whether SC2 taught me how to not get angry at a game or if I knew from the beginning, but I simply don't give a fuck. If the flames get too distracting, you get muted, or I make fun of you, that's about it. I have never been in low priority.
 

Tenks

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A couple things in my post you did miss. First, Starcraft is a much more mechanically demanding game. That really is a truth without debate. While Moba's have no small cap on exploitable APM, there is a definitive limit where the commands would be excessive. Certainly a Pro Dota player has moments where his hand speed is 2-300 APM at the pro level. But it is not a condition that must be sustained from minute 1 until the end of game. Which in Starcraft you could easily make the case that as the game goes on the difficulty level continues to skyrocket in the context of Mechanical APM.

It does take a certain type of person to thrive in a 1v1 competitive environment. Sure you can casually play tennis, but at that point its just to knock the ball around - and not actually keep score. Team sports have a great deal more room for casual players and teams of all skill. I think competitive hardcore 1v1 people are more rare socially. Because I too have zero real life buddies who play any competitive games. FPS, RTS, MOBA, Fighting. Nada.
I purposefully left it out. I don't know enough about pro level mechanical requirements in DOTA. I generally try to avoid just making stuff up so I felt unqualified to discuss it. But when it comes to SC2 APM for the most part it is robotic and internal timer based APM. It isn't quite as exhausting since you aren't really taxing your brain the entire time. Eventually it just becomes natural and engrained. Just muscle memory. In a SC2 match compared to a DOTA2 match you probably make fewer "decisions" at the highest level. Because you pretty much know what to do based upon what you have and what your opponent has and you've seen this scenario. But this repetitive high APM tense environment does lead to more forearm/wrist issues compared to an average DOTA pro. Until you get that muscle memory, though, trying to remember to keep your APM up can be very, very exhausting.
 

Pyros

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Dota mechanical skills tend to be fairly low. There's burst of APM and stuff but overall, it's more a game of knowledge than a game of actual mechanical skill, even though depending on the heroes there's still a decent bit of that(invoker muscle memory, micro intensive heroes, quick execution heroes especially when it comes to blink stuff etc). Laning also has a decent amount of mechanical skill to it, mostly based on timing of stuff, knowing projectile speed/attackpoint/castpoint/damage range and anticipating external factors(other creeps, tower, enemy denying) enter into account to land your last hits correctly, all the while keeping an eye on the map for ganks, timer for runes/pulls and other shit like that.

They're definitely very different games. As for SC2 not thriving, I don't know if it has much to do with SC2 itself and not with well, lol/dota being easier to watch and generally, in my opinion, more interesting on the long term. Short term SC2 is very fun to watch but after a while the meta gets very stale and while the strats vary from match to match, innovation seems to be kinda low, plus with only 3 races matchups often become repetitive and entirely rely on the quality of the players to actually make it kinda interesting, sometimes. Even when there's variations, as a spectator there's so minor it doesn't feel like a big deal(even though technically even a small build order change can have big repercussions), it's like guy goes fast expand, but he's still gonna build the same units, it's just slightly different in the order and as such timing of stuff. On the other hand, while a meta exists in dota/lol, especially in dota matches can be extremely different from one another even with the same picks, and the picks aren't even the same all the time. Teams have very different styles from each other and each player has its own style and preferences which makes it a more changing experience than SC2 imo. LoL is closer to SC2 in that regard, with very very static picks(I think a large part of it is due to their awful banning system which is outdated).

As someone who watched SC2 without playing it, I found it most fun early in the expansion/release, when stuff was still evolving but find watching a tournament fairly boring nowadays(a single match here and there is still fine, whole tournament and you see the same matchups several times especially when dominated by a specific race). For me, it is fairly similar to LoL atm where I can watch a couple of matches but more than that and I get bored of seeing Renekton, Shyvana, Ziggs, Leblanc, Lulu, Tresh, Lucian and so on every fucking game. With dota, while there's some heroes picked all the time(at least region specific), there's still an incredible amount of variations in picks and a whole tournament will generally see 3/4 of the entire hero pool picked at least once.
 

Nirgon

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Every match of SC2 was like a starting gun going off and trying to build and scout (are they going to rush/rush something gay, gotta be sure!) as fast as possible for 20+ minutes. It was just fucking draining to play as much as I liked it. Balance swings didn't help.